#117 NOW you want me to pray?!

Yes now we pray. But how" to what? when? What is the purpose?   There is no purpose until I have something that makes sense to me to pray to! The journey begins. We need to find what's in the way and how to proceed. Listen to this , perhaps it will help clear the way for you. The gathering community has a lot of experience in what works and what doesn't....enjoy!

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Welcome and Why This Matters

SPEAKER_06 0:05

Good evening. Welcome to the gathering for you people on the online or listening on your devices. We're uh based out of Minnesota and we're in I did a check tonight, we're in 95 countries now and over 12,000 downloads, 978 cities. So this work that we're doing together is having an impact. It's pretty weird when you look at the list of countries, you know. But uh there's three people in Bahrain, and you know, it's just like okay. But anyway, it's good to have you. It's good to all be together.

The Pushback Against Prayer

SPEAKER_06 0:45

And uh tonight uh I'm gonna talk about my reaction in early recovery to some of the some of the things that we're being asked to do. And I know from experience that everyone has everyone has their own challenges with this topic. And it doesn't matter if you're in recovery or a person of faith or whatever, this this idea. Now you want me to pray? You know, when I came here, I came as a devout militant evangelical atheist. And wasn't it enough to admit I was powerless? Right? I mean, that was a huge ill to get over, wasn't it? I'm powerless and I can't manage my life. And then it slowly dawns. I mean, the reason I can't manage my life is because I'm powerless. Oh, now I'm powerless everywhere. I thought it was just powerless with the substance. And then they get you to the second step and to say, well, what do you believe? They said, we came to believe that there was a power. I don't believe in that because I know you're talking about God, because I read head to the third step. And you used to you said it. So one of the big challenges in our lives is our closed-mindedness, our stuck ideas, our fixed notions and philosophies that stop us from considering the possibilities. So I uh it took a long time for me.

SPEAKER_07 2:22

It took a long time for me, and as as with most things, here's Zoe. Or not.

SPEAKER_06 2:38

So we turn your camera on if you're there. Um as with most things, it's it was time, time, time. And I most of my experiences with recovery in this fourth-dimensional stuff, I've all backed, I backed into them all.

Mel’s Simple Challenge to Pray

SPEAKER_06 2:53

And uh, example, um, you said some of you heard this story before, but there was a a really sweet guy in my first meetings I come into Monday and Wednesday, down 2400 club, his name was Mel. It's an old Marine. And every time I come in the meeting, he said, How you doing, Raj? I said, Good. He said, Are you praying? I go, Nope, atheists don't pray. And he slapped me on the back. And his hand went from shoulder blade to shoulder blade, and he said, Well, you gotta pray. Hit your knees every morning and thank God for early days of sobriety. And at night when you go to bed, hit your knees, thank God for early days of sobriety. And I'm, you know, I'm going, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why? It means nothing to me. Means nothing to me, except I became quite fond of Mel. And then because of our self-centeredness, our self-centeredness, I started making up stories about Mel. He's so worried about me because I'm not praying. I can just see him at night at the kitchen table with his wife wringing his hands. I got this guy, I got this guy around here, and I just can't get him to pray. And I'm so worried about him. And so, out of that story I made up, I thought, well, I better start praying. I'll just pray for Mel, right? So I did. And I didn't tell him what I was praying. And he uh he came in, asked me, Are you doing good? You praying? I said, Yep, Mel. I started praying. I had a boy. He didn't say, Are you doing what I told you to do, the way I told you to do, and using the words I told you to use. He didn't say that. He just said, Good. Well, my prayer was thanks for another shitty day. And it took about 10 months, and I realized this prayer thing was working because I had I had unrolled a number of really crappy days over 10 months. And then it occurred to me, I wonder, I wonder if I just tweaked this thing, if it'd be different, right? But I couldn't pray really effectively or meaningfully because I didn't have a concept of a power greater than me. And that's another evolution.

Sobriety Without an Explanation

SPEAKER_06 5:00

When I stopped drinking, um I was stopped. In retrospect, I'd say it was a divine intervention. But I get the last night I drank, I couldn't swallow. I didn't stop out of virtue. I didn't stop out of necessity. I was committed to drinking myself to death because I already had the diagnosis from the doctor. And I couldn't swallow. And so I walked out of the bar, I started crying, I went back to a flop house living with a couple guys. I said, I'm gonna kick and you're gonna have to babysit me. That was the last time I drank or did a drug. So I don't believe in God, so I can't have a spiritual experience or a divine intervention, right? But that's what it was. In retrospect, God just grabbed me by the ears and said, okay, we're stopping here. You're right up to here in your mess. I'm gonna take care of the things you can't, the obsession, the chemicals, they're gone. I'm gonna send you some angels. And they're gonna help you. And I don't believe in angels, I don't believe in God. This is all in retrospect, right? But Mel was an angel. Angels were messengers, they were carrying messages. When you do your 12-step work, it's angelic. You're carrying a message of hope and recovery solution to whoever you're ministering to. So it was uh it was uh quite a quite an evolution, and and painfully so, because I wouldn't take any direction for anything. So I got this problem. I've stopped the cessation of alcohol. I'm abstinent, and I have no explanation for it. I'm a musician, I'm working in bars every night. I'm not got no temptation. Drugs, alcohol, available women, it's all around me, and I I'm not tempted at all. I'm hardly even noticing it. I got a problem because I can't call it God. So I'm just observing it. I'm thinking, well, it's gonna stop. It's gonna stop eventually. I'll just wake up drunk one day. And so for me, the observation was very much like Silkworth to Bill, and these guys that got a hold of this mocked program they

From Phenomenon to Mystery

SPEAKER_06 7:15

had. I uh I had a phenomenon. Right? Can't pray to a phenomenon. But over time, when I got to meetings and I'm listening to these guys' testimony, the phenomenon became a mystery. Because I was not the poster child for recovery. And I'd see guys coming in and out all on fire for God and their sponsor and AA, and they'd be drunk in three weeks. And it occurred to me, well, those guys really want it. I don't even, I'm just arguing with the whole thing. I was adamant about, you know, I'm I'm I'm a one-step guy. Thank you very much. I'm not interested in the rest of this because I can't get there because of the God idea. The second step doesn't say I have to believe in God, it says I will come to believe. That's in the future. This idea will come to you, will become real to you. What idea? That there's something other than you that's greater than you, that's greater than you, that can manifest in your being, in your thinking, in your actions, in your perceptions. And so I'm having an experience I can't explain. And then eventually, after watching dozens of guys come in and out. Because I was my early service workers, I was the guy in the back of the room with his arms folded, with hair down to his waist and black leather. And if a young guy was arguing with one of the old timers, the old timer looked at him and said, You want to be like that guy? No. Well, then come and do some steps with me, right? So that was that was my job. And I did it really well. I was a good example of a dry drunk, but it became a mystery. Now I have got a power greater than me. I don't have a definition of it, which is really good for me. Because if I had a definition of it, it would just limit it. But I have this mystery now that's upon me, and I can't deny it. I'm having an experience beyond my comprehension. And now I have an answer for the second step. I'm willing to believe, I'm coming to believe in the mystery. Now I can make a decision in the third step to turn my thinking and my actions by willing my life over to care of that mystery. But that's just an evolution of the concept, the theory for me. But

When Set Prayers Go Wooden

SPEAKER_06 9:58

then the application, you know, we have we have set prayers with all kinds of ways to pray. And this is not unique to uh addicts and alcoholics. I've worked with a lot of people, church people, that have got all the right pieces in place and have no experience. They're not having any experience of what they're doing. Richard Rohr talks about this this way. He says, whatever you're doing, if it's church, if it's God, Jesus, the Trinity, Buddhism, whatever it is, AA, 12 steps, if you're not having a transformative experience, it's either not the right vehicle for you or you're not addressing it correctly. Not giving yourself to it. Oh, okay. So as this thing evolves, I start praying. I I start praying the prayers that we all do in the beginning, the serenity prayer. Took me a year to memorize that. That's that's how much brain advled I was. It just couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't, right? And then the third-step prayer, and and the seven-step prayer, and those things are a decent introduction, you know, but eventually, and everyone that here had that has a prayer life, you know this. Eventually, your prayers become wooden, they appear to stop working. And my thing was the first thought is well, God, you know, I guess this isn't going to happen for me anymore because it's it's not feeding me, because I'm not going deep enough with it. So when it stops and it becomes wooden, I have one of two things I can do. I can go deeper and enrich the experience of the prayer that I'm using, or I can find a new way to pray for another prayer, write your own prayer, right? Whatever. And um, so I got into that. All of this was uh experiential because I didn't have a guidance. You know, I talked to people that talked about how strong their prayer life was, and they were using prayers that didn't work for me, like the Lord's Prayer or you know, the seven-step prayer, whatever. And so what I've come to realize of this, the thing that makes the prayer work is the intention.

Intention, Outlining, and Trust

SPEAKER_06 12:24

When I pray with intention, I always get an answer. Example, um, I've used this example many times, but it's a good example. I pray for patience, right? And I I I got really good at setting up my morning practice, half hour, 45 minutes, and I'm all spiritual and ready to go. And I'm praying for patience. And the way I'm praying is I'm thinking it's gonna show up like a prime delivery. You know, I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and I'm gonna be patient. Thank you very much. And that's not the answer to the prayer. The answer to the prayer is, oh, he wants patience, so send him some things to try his patience so he can work that muscle. It's just like a spiritual gym metaphor, right? And so then I started realizing, oh, the prayers are being answered. I just can't interpret the answer because I have a fixed idea of how it's supposed to come to me and what it's supposed to look like. In metaphysics, that's called outlining. I got a prayer, and I'm also got the solution and how it's supposed to show up. So I need to have a thousand dollars worth of orders by the first of the month, and I'm getting a $20 order and a $50 order and a $100 order, and I'm pissed off. I said, I need a thousand bucks. It's showing up, just not the way I thought. I wanted a thousand dollar order. No, no, no. It's coming in 20s, 50s, 100s. So I have to learn to interpret. Also, I have to learn to trust the process. And you trust it when you have experiences of it.

Prayer as Relationship and Change

SPEAKER_06 13:59

I think the biggest thing about prayer for me has been prayer changes the person who prays. Because what I'm trying to do is form a relationship with prayer, connect prayer and meditation in the 11th step, to have a conscious experience of what I call God or my creator. Conscious, living. So, how do you form a relationship with with your friends? You get to know them, you share stories, you talk. So there's you're there's petitionary prayer, God help me, there's intercessory prayer, God help Tom, there's prayer of thanks, prayer of praise, praise of all this other stuff. There's also our recovery prayers, the serenity prayer, St. Francis prayer, all these things are pointing us in the same direction. Your answer is in your relationship with what you call God or the Creator, right? And uh I and there's conversational too. Sometimes I just sit around and talk, have a conversation with God. And I assume God's listening because I've learned how to read the response more consistently. Not always, but more consistently, because it's really easy to have the ego come in the back door and say, this isn't happening, or this isn't right, or this isn't working. It's working because it's changing me. I got to give myself to something bigger than me. One of the first things we do when we come into recovery is we're giving ourselves to something bigger than us. 12-step recovery. Transformational. There's a resurrection quality to that. There's a born-again quality to that. There's a reborn, a new birth. You know, it's it's um it's a fascinating process because all of a sudden you realize that something was that was a chronic problem for you has disappeared, and you don't even know when it happened. I don't even know when that changed. I'm starting, you know, I had a sponsor once that said uh, all those gray shapes in your life, those are people. And I only you only became intolerant three-dimensional when you had something I wanted. Hi, Zoe. We're talking about prayer. Um, and so part of this waking up is I started realizing there's other people here besides you. It sounds stupid to say it out loud, but that's really how I was going through life. The only time you had any value to me is when you could do something for me or to me. And then I start seeing you as part of a whole. There's another form of prayer that really worked well for me, still works well for me.

Claiming Prayer and Inner Abundance

SPEAKER_06 16:56

It's a claiming prayer. The Essenes, when their concept, this is out of the Dead Sea scrolls, some books that didn't make it into the Bible, but they talked about how they prayed. And they saw God as a father figure, father-mother figure, right? And so if we're creating the image of our Creator, then we're created with everything we need to have in every circumstance and situation. We already have all the parts, we just got to get them organized. And the reason it's so hard for us is because we're programmed in a culture that's dualistic and three-dimensional, and we're talking about fourth-dimensional living, spirit. And that's uh that takes some time, doesn't it? Takes some time, but the claiming prayer, instead of for me, the positionary intercessory prayer stuff never worked because I'm praying from lack. In God's realm, we we're in abundance. There is no lack in God's world. I'm praying from man's world. There's lack. I need this, I need that. God help me, please. The claiming prayer is I claim the strength that's my divine right. I claim the wisdom that is my divine right. There's no there's no lack in that prayer. There's a practice realization that God has already created in me everything that I need to do well. No, you don't have to call it God. You can call it anything you want. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. I read an article the other day, and these some uh masters brought the uh 12 steps to a Buddhist monastery. They said, We'd like you to look at these and tell us what you think. And of course, Buddhism, they don't believe in God, they believe in goodness, they believe in the virtues, right? So, anyway, so the monks look at it and they talk about it for a while and say, Well, it's exactly what we're doing, except instead of God, we would say good. Oh, okay. And as you grow in your efforts to learn and expand your concepts, you'll see this all over the place. I find DeMello, I find Eckhart Tolli, I find, I find Emmett Fox, Henry Nollen, Richard Rohr, and these guys are all different than 12-step, and they're all saying the same thing. And it keeps coming back. Just I don't need another program. I just need to do this one to the best of my ability. And it's taking care of every ism I've had. So how do I know when I'm praying effectively?

How Peace Signals Connection

SPEAKER_06 19:49

Well, one of the ways is there's a monotone of peace present. I've got a buffer. It's God and me, and the buffer is God from the world, right? From the appearance of things. That's how we get screwed up is the ego and the false self is going, well, this is what it looks like to me, and then we act on it. There's an infinite number of ways to look at every situation, but I only look through my prejudice, my conditioning, and my history, and then I look through my fear, my future, right? And I have to back up. I call it the 10,000-foot view. I just gotta keep backing up. Try and see this the way God would see it, right? So you know the connection because when the connection, when I describe people that meditate and pray, and when they describe to me their effect, they talk about things like peace, calm, still. So um, that's

Group Shares Start: Real Prayer Lives

SPEAKER_06 20:51

enough for me. Let's let's open up. I'd like to hear people talk about what they learn from prayer, how they pray, what the results are. What do you do when it goes south, what it when it stops working? That's when you lean into it more. That's when you start digging around finding other thoughts and ideas on prayer to stimulate your imagination and your creativity. So floor's open. Susan's gonna help me with this, I think. You know that prayer, now I lay me down to sleep. I grew up with that prayer as a little boy. Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. What a terrifying way to end the damn day. But the other, there's another part of the prayer Susan told me about years ago. Um, if I should live another day, I pray the Lord to guide my way. Now, when you put that with the first half, it's a whole different thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08 21:56

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:59

Guidance. Council. Direction Peace. The absence of trouble. Okay. Open around, come on. I know most of you most of you bright. I I can go.

SPEAKER_05 22:18

A bunch of bunch of random thoughts that I'll try to hopefully connect. Thanks, Roger, for the um topic tonight. The I guess, you know, when I first came in, um I had no prayer prayer life. I had um kind of a Santa Claus concept of God. I didn't really know the difference between God and spirituality or you know, any of this. And and I think what what kept me back in the beginning was um just this idea that, okay, um, you know, I just, you know, at the point I came in, I just I didn't believe it was gonna work. And I didn't believe, you know, I found it hard to believe that prayer would solve these real world problems that you know that I had. And I think I think another another part of it too was um, you know, when I came in, it was my impression or my feeling in terms of what I was trying to solve was I just needed to stop drinking. And everything else would be fine, right? Which, you know, you heard in Rogers shirt tonight. And I mean, that resulted in a extended period of you know your time being a dry drunk. For me, it was um uh you know, coming in for I don't know what was it, coming in for six or nine months, no, nine months maybe, um having a relapse. And I remember before that relapse happened, I was I was still traveling a lot for work and I was on an extended trip and I was sober um by myself, you know, in a foreign country reading the uh what the heck was it? This is 12 and 12 on step three because I could not understand for the life of me. I I just could not get past step three. And and I, you know, I'm sitting in this hotel, I'm highlighting all this stuff, and you know, the next night I was in a bar drinking. So it just was really hard for me to reach. And I think what you know, fortunately, I I found myself, you know, back in a meeting in, you know, in in that country pretty quick. And uh I got around a group of people that, you know, again, not unlike what we have here, where you know the the the spirituality and the connectedness and the God came from each one of the people that I was in front of and sharing my story. And slowly but surely that's what I discovered as a as a way to I guess uh make a connection and make that decision to turn, you know. I mean, when I got back from that trip, I was like, all right, you know, I don't care, you know, what where I'm at belief-wise, I don't care what people think of me, I'm just I'm just gonna do this because I don't really see any other alternatives. And then it was, you know, again, that little bit of willingness opened the door and and uh allowed me to to to keep moving forward. And yeah, it got dry because um, lo and behold, uh that an extended period of time, and then you know that dryness ultimately resulted in you know my ego coming back to full force and me looking instead of me looking inward to you know the the you know the God within me or or or or my true self, I I started looking outward and um kind of gave up on it. And it was always relapse. So it's yeah, I think for all of us it ebbs and flows. It it for me it definitely did. Um and the other thing that Raj that you said was, you know, kind of the I I think one of the things that limited me for a while was you know, I was equating, you know, a relationship with God as part of a religion or my religion. And that's not what this is. It's you know, it's a very for me, it's a very inward-looking thing. And what what I've kind of starting to run across these days is the more consistently I can view it that way, and um the the form or the words of my prayers or you know, none of that matters as long as I'm making the effort to make the contact and truly trying to evaluate the results that it that I'm getting from it. And and what what it looks like is you know, every I every the way that I measured my happiness and in many respects still do is through the external, you know. How do I look? How do I sound? You know, uh I'm pissing anybody off. If I am, that's not good. I I need to please people, and all of that my happiness is is constantly being evaluated against the externals. And what you know, I'm slowly starting to discover through this, you know, through prayer and a strong relationship with God is none of the externals matter. My true happiness is gonna come from within. And the the further that I can go to separate myself from those externals, the the more consistency I'm gonna have with you know what I consider to be true happiness. And it it really doesn't, you know, like I said before, the form of prayer doesn't matter, the the words, the all it is is intention and um willingness. And and then for me, just don't be a dickhead.

SPEAKER_06 29:18

That's all I got. Thanks. To put it in simple terms, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Paul brought up a really important thing. We're raised in a culture that's that's all external referral. I'm always comparing myself to you and how you're doing versus how I'm doing or how it appears that you're doing, right? And the discovery is this is an inside job. The steps are about your internal makeup, not your external. And that's a big reach because in AA they say back in the we agnostics, I think it is every deep down every man, woman, and child is a fundamental idea of God. And Jesus said you're divine, your essence is divine. Jesus thought the divinity of man. You created the image of your creator, you're already as spiritual as you're going to be. We have to uncover all the junk that's sitting on top of your spirit, metaphorically, right? All the stuff that's in the way, and that's what the steps do. And what's in the way is my thinking. I've got plenty of gods, they just don't work. Intimidation, argumentation, money, power, sex. I've got plenty of gods. I've had plenty of higher powers. Your opinion of me was a higher power, right? But I don't recognize it. One, and two, I don't see the failure of it. Because an external referral in this man-made three-dimensional thing we got going here, the answer's out there. And what Jesus was saying and what AA is saying is the answer's in here. You got to come inside. And that's a scary journey because most of us have never done that before we got here. And it's like, God, now I'm gonna find out who I am. I'm terrified to know who I am. But it it it unrolls, it unfolds so slowly and gently that it doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt at all. Thanks, Paul.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Well, I'll go. Um thank you, Roger and Paul. Uh I've prayed in the past, uh, even before I wanted to face my uh drinking. Um and I I prayed for health and for healing of relationship. Um, but I wasn't specific when we talk about intention. I wasn't specific to pray for um addressing my alcoholism because that would mean I'd have to admit I was powerless. I wanted to be healed with the misuse. I wanted to retain drinking, I just didn't want to cause harm. And um so um the 200 days that I I was without alcohol, I wasn't relying on prayer. I was being stubborn. Um, I can do this. Um and then when I started again, I was I quickly realized no I can't. And that's when I started stopped praying for health and specifically asked um for help with drinking or or or with sensation, with continence. Um with that I'll pass.

SPEAKER_06 32:53

Thanks, Chris. You know, that's a thing every one of us has to get to. Because what you're describing is I had to get to the place where my self-reliance failed completely and it became subconscious awareness to me. I need help. This isn't working. That's step one. Well, I've said management because everything I've thrown at this doesn't work. And when I'm not drinking, I'm abstinent and I'm so dissatisfied with that that I have to drink again. Well, so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

I'm Kirsten, I'll go. Hi, Kirsten. I remember when I was first out of the retreat, I was people like we'd do meditations at the retreat, we'd meditate for a half hour in the morning or something like that. And someone would teach us that Namaste meant the God in me, sees the God in you, and we'd say Namaste to whoever led the meditation or something like that. And I'm just like, this is the this is, I mean, no way, the God in me and the God in you. I don't think so. God's this sky daddy, right? Sky Daddy, that that god who I beg to help me not drink. So it wasn't that I wasn't a believer, I believed that God was there, and I didn't, and I believed at that time because I was stuck with my childhood version of Creator that God was punishing and vengeful, and that if people had hard times, they probably did something to deserve that. Too bad, ooh, you know. And so, anyway, long story short, is I just figured I wasn't in the game anymore. I think I've shared this with you guys, but I felt certainly by the time I was so alcoholic that I was at the retreat, um, that I was forsaken for sure. And I just didn't understand how this God thing was gonna help me because every time I begged God to help me not drink today, I still drank. Just like, well, this isn't working, because I was very specific about what I needed from God. And would you please, you know, if there is a God or if you are real, don't let me drink today, you know. And of course, that never worked because I wasn't looking at the real problem. First of all, my lack lack, I mean, I I could tell because I would beg, I would lie there at night with my heart pounding, just desperate to go down to the kitchen and get a drink because I was having, you know, heart palpitations and shakes and withdrawal stuff. And I would just be like, oh my God, I cannot drink tonight. It's two o'clock in the morning, can't sleep. All I need to do is get a drink and then I can calm down. And um I would just be like, God, help me, help me, help me not help me calm down, help me breathe deeper, help me not drink, please. You know, and there I would be, I'm just like, all right, I give up, covers off, sneak down to the kitchen, drink, you know, and so I knew God was there because I was talking to God. I mean, it wasn't that I didn't believe, I just believed that I was forsaken already. So when I got it got finally into my head that I could create my own concept of God and I didn't have to use the one I'd been given in the 12 churches in town because I tried every one of them and I disagreed or didn't believe in lots of the concepts, you know. Or I'm just like, well, I can't play that game. That sounds like murder, you know. I'm you know, the Baptists and the Catholics and the Lutherans and the Methodists and all that. Anyway, um my first concept of God was really um, my sponsor made me made me describe it. And I remember just feeling like a complete idiot about it. But it has changed and morphed and evolved over the years, and now I understand, you know, if it is your will, God, um, please keep Gracie safe tonight or something like that. I understand that I don't get to name the the solution to my problem, I don't get to give God instructions. I just have to pray for, you know, if it is your will, please let this be, you know, please let them be okay, whatever, that kind of stuff. Um, keep keeping in mind that it's not up to me. I am powerless. But what I know now is that there is something far greater than me or any other human being, and so I'm not that comfortable in a church situation where there's somebody telling me how it is all the time. And so the relationship that I've built with creator is of my own making, and it's beautiful, and it's based on the principles of the big book. And you know, who would God have me be? Who would creator have me be? What what do I do today to be helpful? Um, that kind of stuff. Helpful to God, helpful to my people, all of our people, all of the people. Um, and it keeps me pretty sane. It keeps me okay with myself, which is a feeling that I never thought I would have when I first started on this journey ever. I mean, I just couldn't stand myself. I couldn't stand any part of me. I hate that girl, you know, hated myself. Um, so you know, the principles in this program keep me pretty sane, and I can feel when I'm not sane, I'm on I'm off the beam a little bit. It's because something needs to be addressed. I've missed something somewhere. And I know now that I have the tools to figure out, you know, reach out to someone or or whatever. Um what uh the conscious contact with creator for me is essential because I need to keep that relationship, or I start to go off the path, or I start to be crabby or bitchy or self-serving or self-centered, or all of those things. And so um it's just wildly surprising to me that I would have a relationship with who I call creator and or God for short. But um, it's been the best thing ever for me. And I don't think about drinking, I don't think about smoking. I I just think about, you know, who would he have me be today? The creator. And it keeps me pretty content, you know, pretty serene most of the time. And if I'm not, I know why. Where's my conscious contact? Anyway, I really enjoy that daily reprieve for myself that we are promised in the book. And um, with that, I will pass.

SPEAKER_06 39:54

Thanks, Kirsten. You know, there's a couple of themes here that are showing up. Um, everyone's talking about I wanted change. I just didn't want it to be me. I wanted all of you to change, and then I'd be fine. Thank you very much. And it's just the opposite is true. It's an inside job, right? There's a prayer I ran across this a couple of weeks ago that I'm I'm really enjoying. And you you you mentioned the fear prayer, the what would you have me be? The prayer, the prayer and the fear inventory is God remove my fear, because I'm powerless over it, and it's in the future, it hasn't even happened, and direct my attention to what you would have me be. That's a call to consciousness, not action. Be kind, be helpful, be empathetic, be forgiving, be tolerant, right?

SPEAKER_07 40:44

So the prayer is I thank God for everything I have, and I trust God for everything I need. So, who else?

SPEAKER_06 40:59

Thank you. Can it really be that simple, Roger? Well, what do you think? We're a genius at complicating things, right? You know, let go, let God. Oh, yeah, right. Clean house, trust God, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Oh great, great topic. Uh I I too grew up with that prayer. You know, if I should die before I wake, I thought, what the hell? There's it's all over with anyway. What sort of look forward to? I didn't have any hope anymore. You know, I didn't have any hope anymore. You know, and the the last time I got drunk, it didn't work. Or I should say the last time I tried to get drunk, it didn't work. Now I'm in trouble. What do I do now? Yeah. Uh I spent the next 60, 70 days on one or two hours of sleep at night. I wasn't a drug guy, so I didn't fool with that. Uh, you know, suicide became an option, but I couldn't decide what to do with it. Uh, because what next occurred to me was this is the punishment for my sins. There's something bad happening here, and it's gonna get worse. What am I gonna do? And I'm thinking, drinking doesn't work anymore. I tried the last time and I drank for over 12 hours, and it did not work for me. What do I do now? Where do I go? For the first time in my life, I went to a guy I worked for, who I have drank with, and said, for the first time in my life, I think I need help. And he knew exactly what he did. I wind up in a treatment center, you know, for seven weeks and a day, and I'm in the treatment center trying to process the stuff they're exposing me to, and thinking that maybe I'll catch on, and I'm not catching on. I'm looking for where's the bells and the whistles and the bright lights for this conversion to help. And I remember very distinctly one day in the cafeteria, finally in my mind thinking almost out loud, God, what the hell do I need to do? I don't know what, I don't know how, I don't know who. Nothing I've said or thought about has worked. How do I do this? You gotta let me know because my ideas, my thoughts, my my hopes, I have not. They're gone. And something happened there that didn't occur to me until much later. Uh, it started to work. I started to listen. You know, I started to think maybe I can do this. Yeah, I don't like rules, I don't like regulations. To this day, I don't like them. There are some in place in my life that work beautifully when I work them, and prayer is one of them. Regulations are made to be bent, manipulated. You know, to my advantage. It's the other people out there, not me. It's bad luck. I love the things, use the people. God, I'm glad I don't have to go back and do that again. The darkness, the aloneness, uh, all of that. The living hell, I guess, really is what I would call it. I never want to do that again. I still argue with God. You know, because I know there's some rules out there. When I first heard the word spirituality and begin to have an understanding, what a God-given thing that was. I can believe in a God of my own understanding. Are you kidding me? I don't have to listen to what the preacher says or the Sunday school teachers or this or that. That's incredible. It gave me the freedom to establish something that was greater and more powerful than I was, but I wasn't sure what was going to happen. And I start looking around at the guys I would see at meetings, and they're smiling. And I'm wondering, what the hell are you up to? Why are you smiling? Don't you know what I'm going through, etc. etc.? Where's my serenity? And they would tell me, hey, it's there. You just don't have it yet. Just keep doing what you need to do and listen and keep talking, and it'll happen. And it did. And it did. I've never been lied to in this program, which is unbelievable. Today, uh, yeah, I have my rounds with God. Most of the time it's pretty pretty decent. I'm asking for guidance. God, but what is it that I really need to do? Because some days I have no clue. How should I do it? Where should I do it? Is there someone I need to be visiting with? Do I need to treat my wife better on a lot of days? That's true. You know, but I need I need the direction. And I have found over a period of time that when I make this request to shut up and let it happen. I remember asking a counselor some years into sobriety, I said, Hey, I'm not so sure that you know the stuff I've asked for has really happened. And he looked at me and he said, Well, did you ask for something? Yes, I did. Did you believe it could happen? Yes, I did that it's happening. That's right. It was happening. I just wasn't paying attention, you know. Uh good topic. Thank you, Roger.

SPEAKER_06 46:51

Thank you, Doug. You know, there's a thing that's a theme in here, and I and I know many of you, so I know this is true. But one of the things underneath all this, Kirsten talked about it, and you just talked about it. There's a part of me, this is called shame, that thinks I'm unforgivable, I'm unredeemable, I'm broken, and that's the end of the story. Right? And it's not true, but it is when you're stuck in that reality. When you're stuck in the shame, you've been the judge, jury, and you've been condemned. And that's that simple. I want to I want to speak a minute. This is not about bashing religion, it's about finding something that works for you. My spiritual director that I had for over 10 years was a church guy. And he and I were having the same experience. But he was having it through the church, the rituals and the biblical theological stuff, and now I was having it through A. And I come and sit with him after a weekend retreat or something, and we debrief. And I go, and then this happened. He goes, Oh, that's Mark 13, 3. And I go, No, that's six and seven, right? And so I was teaching him this test, and he was teaching me what the Bible said. It's it's fine, but it's just it's not it's not either or it's hand. You know, when I read my books in the morning, I've got about eight books I read, and four of them were priests or religious people, because I can hear them now. I couldn't hear because of my prejudice, my closed mind, my ideas got in the way. So that's great. Thank you. Who else? Go ahead, mama.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

I'm Susan, I'm an alcoholic.

Meditation, Inventory, and Daily Dialogue

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Um when when we talk about prayer, the more we talk about it, the more confusing it seems to me. Like, like it's not that to me, it's just like second nature to pray is just sort of an all-day-long dialogue, it's just a content. But but Roger started when he started his talk today. He started with step one, with the powerlessness. And so um, that beautiful order that the steps are in. Um I realized like when I was completely thought I was the power and that the world revolved around me and that I had some effect on everything that was happening. Somehow, somehow I was causing things to happen and I was producing these results. And and really when I look at it now from this perspective, it's like praying to myself, right? I think that I've got some kind of control over all of this stuff. And so when I get to that first step and I realize that I'm not that power, that sort of kind of uh breaks away a little bit of what's in the way of my ability to connect with something other than myself, right? Because I have to have the realization first, otherwise I'm gonna be going spinning in circles, praying to myself and continuing to pray to myself. Um, because I constantly wanted my will to be done. I I wanted my will. I wanted everything to be the way that I wanted it to be. And if it didn't turn out that way, then there was something wrong out here. And um, so coming to that realization that I'm powerless, um, and then like Roger said, moving on to to um, I have to come to believe in some kind of some kind of power, because it does, it just um there has to be something, some kind of order to this. And so um going through those steps in that way and then finding out um how I can perceive this power, this idea of a power, believing that I can, can, um, can submit to some sort of power, and then um actually taking that action and and being willing to um have something run my life other than me. All of that has to come before I have any idea what prayer is, even like because you know, before it was always just praying for what I wanted. And so once I get to that point of true understanding that I'm not the power, then I have the ability to look at what what I want. I want to somehow connect with this power that isn't me because I want to get some results, because I don't want to be miserable anymore. And so, and so I realize that I have to have some kind of tools to get um the stuff that's in the way out of the way. And so for me, that um that the 12 and 12 says that um together prayer, something like this, together prayer meditation and self-um examination create an unshakable foundation for living. And so my practice really is that the meditation portion opens me up to the ability to have the channel open. It's like turning on the radio, you know, meditation. I'm turning on the radio so I can get some reception. And then I can open myself up and clear the junk, the everyday junk out of the way so that I can connect with some sort of power that isn't me. Um, and so, so the process of that going through the inventory process and and figuring out what the things are that are standing in my way of connecting with some other power besides myself, you know, that process, doing that every night, and then having that meditation to sort of clear, clear away the space so that I can have a communication that, you know, that telephone's on and you're picking up the receiver and dialing the number and and um and then having there's that hope too, you know, that plays into every single one of these steps and every single um move I make in my recovery journey is the fact that I'm watching the people around me and they are are giving me evidence of hope. And so when I see all the people around me that are doing all these things and they're telling me about their prayers and about how it works and what it gives them, that little bit of hope helps me clear away more of what's standing in the way of communicating with this. And so I got to know, like, really what's the purpose for me to pray? I can't just pray randomly. Um, I have to have a goal. And my goal is to understand this power, to increase that connection with the power. Uh, our son has a radio show, like he's a DJ, right, on the radio on Fridays. And sometimes we have trouble tuning into his station, and Roger's got it on his phone, I've got it on my phone, I've got it in stereo. But like we have to make the effort to do the connection if we want to hear um what the results are gonna be, right? So we're tuning into Miles on the radio, and um and we have to make sure that we're on the right station and that and that we're open to receive the what we're hearing. So, so the biggest part about everything really is the getting away what's in the way and then opening my myself up, but I can only do that because of the hope that I'm offered by watching everyone else. And by doing that, then I get in the game and then um and then I figure out what do I want from this prayer? I want to increase this contact, and I know that I'm not the power. I've experienced that I can't do this thing. So I have to stop praying to myself. Um, and I have to stop praying to all these other false gods, money and men and um, you know, all the other things, who I am and what you think of me, and and all those attachments, and and have to really start believing that um that he is a father and I am his and I am his child, is what the book tells us that that's the fundamental idea. Um, is that I have a connection with this relationship that I'm gonna have. And for me, so for my practice, it it's a relationship and it's an ongoing conversation. Um, but I know that from my experience of my how badly I burned and destroyed my life when I was drinking, I know that I can't ask for my will because my natural go-to is has never really produced these great results until I started giving it to God's will. So always starting with thy will and then knowing what thy will is. How you know, I'm praying for God's will. Do I know what that is? So for me, it's just the higher principles. And so, so I kind of have an idea. Um, I'm just gonna pray for God's will. And I already know the answer to the prayers because it's gonna be something based on a higher principle. So I can count on answers that I can never see because because I'm blind to the powerful and amazing, wonderful way that this this power, this magnificent power works in my life. And and that's the thing, not all of my prayers are always answered. I just don't see it and it's not in my timing um until you know far later. Um, so for me, that prayer is an integral part of my recovery, but it's based on all these other things before I can really get to it. But all I have to do is to get in the game is just start doing it. I have to, in order for me to fall in love with Roger, I had to start talking to him. And we had to have a and I had to start listening to him. And and so without that, a relationship dies. And and so it's just like like anything that's going to keep me alive and keep me surviving is is some kind of nourishment. And prayer does that. It keeps that that um growth and that connection alive. Without it, um my life would go downhill. But it's all of those pieces together that work together to improve my conscious contact, which is my ultimate goal, so that I can have emotional balance and etc. etc. I'll pass.

SPEAKER_06 56:34

Thank you. Yeah, you know, oh come on. No, oh come on, Tom, are you gonna share?

SPEAKER_04 56:44

I am, that was beautiful.

Simple Help: Guidance Over Control

SPEAKER_04 56:46

Um and I hope that I could say something that's not coming from from ego. And uh but really when uh when I used to pray, I'm very devout Catholic, it had been part of my life from from you know day one. And and I really used to I prayed all the time to all the sacraments of prayer, but but I really was praying for particular um goals or objectives or money or whatever, and it worked, okay. But yet, yet, almost the the one thing, the most important thing, was the drinking. Never it didn't really work. And what really then I had to do was have it as uh Susan just said have that conversation with God, and I just said, and and I got it, and I I've repeated it a bunch of times. I got like I'm powerless. I'm not I'm not my big ego that I'm gonna do all this macho. I am freaking powerless. This has got me. I cannot beat drinking, and I gave it up to God. And God, please help me. And that's the reason. Now, then out of sobriety, my my my faith has grown greater and greater. And I thought of the I don't know the exact Bible verse, but whatever, two or three or more are together in my name. I'm there with them. That Jesus said, I love coming to the gathering because there's always something really phenomenal coming out of this. But one of the things that came up today was I was talking to my 17-year-old grandson, and he was telling me about some of the fears he had. You know, he's got to start making money soon. He's gonna be going out on his own. And you know, he's I you know, basically say, You're a junior in high school, you know, you don't have to worry. But he was really fearful about that. And I then I told him, I said, you know, I said, Cole, talk to God like when you were a little kid. Just ask him for help. Now I I thought of that earlier when we started sharing. That's really prayer, and that's prayer for me now. That I have my favorite prayer is come, Holy Spirit, which I say often and throughout the day. And I say before I read something, I ask for the Holy Spirit's help and guidance. But I said that and was like, wow, okay. As you were we were all sharing, what I said to my grand 17-year-old grandson was what I really believe, and that's how I pray. I need help. Please help me, give me guidance, help me see this. And when he heard that, he was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, Papa, yeah, I can, you know, he's Mr. Cool. And but he heard it. And I think tonight he's gonna say, Hey, God, please help me decide whatever. So but this is this is it it's really powerful. So thank you all. I I'm just uh I'm moved every time we we get together. And it's uh and I hope that ego thing that's been with me my entire life, and God, I'm just trying to, it doesn't want to die. It it just wants to it tries to keep being alive, but really it's it's talking to God and being in relationship with God is really the and being sober, and being sober is the greatest gift of my life. And I'll pass.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:09

Thank you, Tom.

Faith, Fear, Anger, and Closing

SPEAKER_06 1:00:11

Where uh, you know, I think that we would all agree to some degree about this, but the thing that's crossing my mind is this whole thing about faith. Faith is belief in the unseen, the unknown, the unprovable, right? Faith. And I'd say I don't believe in anything. Well, I did. I believed that nothing would work. And so then in recovery, I took actions that I didn't think would work, and I got results that I didn't think were possible. And that's the beginning of the awakening, right? And that's also the beginning of forming a belief system because now that I've tried it and it worked, I wonder what else could work. You know, when uh fear. We're almost out of time here, but I I was sitting in a meeting with fear and and they were talking about fear, and I'm you were talking about ego dominant. I'm not afraid of anything. I've had guns up to my head, I've had people chasing me with cars, and I've I'm not afraid of anything. And then one of the old guys took me aside after the meeting and said, You do have anger issues though, don't you? And I said, Well, yeah, of course. I got angry. I I don't consider it an issue, it's a defense, right? And I'll use it as needed. And he said, Well, that's interesting because anger is a secondary emotion. The primary emotion of anger is fear. And I went, oh shit. Because then I went from being afraid of nothing to being afraid of everything, which again is a propellant to move towards a solution. When I became aware of how fear-based I was, I was motivated to try and find a different solution. But until it's the failure, the promise of the failure is there's something better on the other side. But I never get to the other side because I'm trying to hide the failure. Anyway, it's good to be with you guys. Um, you want to close with a serenity prayer? Unmute yourself.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:23

Got it?

unknown 1:02:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:26

Okay, here we go. God, grant me the serenity.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

Accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:38

The wisdom to know the difference. There you go. That was that was really organized. Thank you, everybody. God bless everybody. See you in a while. Thank you, both. Thanks again. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:51

Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Roger.

unknown 1:02:53

Yeah.