#111 Forgiveness

Forgive , Forgiveness, Forgiven , Self Forgiveness. We are forgiven as we Forgive, what isn't transformed is transmitted.  We suffer from our History & our Imagination. The past and the future. The past is dead and the future (fear) hasn't happened. We need to be free of the past , How do I get free? By amending past harms and extending forgiveness to those you have wronged us. This is a process, the product of understanding, compassion and empathy, Inventory, prayer and meditation. I can never forget, but the way I know I have forgiven is when the memory comes up, it has no power or emotional bite to it. This also includes a discussion, live , with the members of the Gathering! 

Transcript

Welcome And The Forgiveness Theme

SPEAKER_11 0:03

Roger alcoholic. Um, October 11th, 1978 is when I started the journey, and I know you've all heard that hundreds of times. But if you're listening online, uh, welcome to the gatherings. These are 10 of my closest personal friends. They'll be sharing their experience right at home tonight. And if you're listening online, um, there's an opportunity for you to become a supporter for as little as $3 a month. Um, we're in uh 59 countries, territories, over 900 cities, and we're just north of 11,000 downloads. So welcome aboard, welcome to the gathering. So this is what's been coming up. Um, I don't know what you I get I get themes that appear during the week. People uh calling with questions and and slash problems. And this week it's been all about forgiveness. So I thought we'd share some things about forgiveness between us. Um a dictionary definition is an intentional personal choice to let go of resentment, anger, and the desire for vengeance towards someone or something that's wronged you. Okay. Um to grant pardon for a mistake. It's a canceling of the debt. I've made a decision that you have offended me, and that judgment is on you. And when I forgive you, I cancel the judgment. Um but here's the here's the here's the problem with that. I think forgiveness, when I started, I thought forgiveness growing up was an act of the will. I forgive you. And then I walk away, I didn't forgive at all. Like on the school playground when you're a kid, you're fighting, and the teacher comes and says, separate tissues, no, apologize. Sorry. I'm not sorry. I walk away thinking, what an asshole, right? So there's no forgiveness there. And Harry Tebow, consulting uh psychiatrist with uh Bill Wilson, had an interesting uh, oh I forgot to start the timer. Shit. Had an interesting take on forgiveness. He says, we don't we don't forgive with our will. We create the environment for the forgiveness to come through us. So now that takes on a little different tone. I forgive as I'm forgiven. When I was here originally, when I came in in the first years, it was all about me. Why does anyone understand me? Why does anyone care about me? What about me? When am I gonna get free? When are you gonna help me get free? When are you gonna give me some love, some attention, some affirmation? And I have none of that for anyone else. And there's you can't receive what you won't give. If I'm unwilling to extend understanding, compassion, empathy to you, it's not going to be extended to me. So in the act of forgiving you, of letting go of this judgment, I get free because I set in motion the forgiveness. It comes back to me. There's a saying, we're forgiven as we forgive. Yeah, but what what isn't transformed is transmitted. And I gotta, I came here with a lot of hate, a lot of anger, a lot of wounds, right? And a big pathetic story. And it didn't seem to no one seemed to care about it but me. It pissed me off, right? So I don't, I don't, the forgiveness idea didn't evolve for me till my prayer life started to evolve, till my concept of God started to get bigger, big enough to be able to envelop what I perceive as my problems or my circumstances. So the question isn't, and AA doesn't care about that. You remember in your resentment image said, brill or imagined, because whatever you think happened is true for you. That is your reality. But that's not the point. We don't argue about the efficacy of your resentment. We talk about what are we going to do about it? What are you gonna do about it? And there's some words empathy, compassion, forgiveness, these are foreign to me when I came in. Totally foreign concepts and and uh I perceived as as a weakness.

Resentments And The Big Book Lens

SPEAKER_11 4:52

So um I'll use our big book for a reference. When we get to the resentments, they do they do two paragraphs before we go to the fourth column to see if we understand how these resentments dominate us, how our past dominates us, how our story dominates us. And then it says, uh, well, the problem is how do you outgrow these resentments? And it says, this was our course. This is what we did. We realize that the people who wronged us were perhaps spiritually sick. That's already a shift in perception. Instead of you being fill in the blank that has to die before lunch, um, I realize it it becomes real to me, this person may be spiritually sick. It's just a possibility. So, okay, though I don't like their symptoms, that's column two, what they did, and how they disturbed us, that's column three. Your basic instincts, social security and sex. They like ourselves, we're sick too. So what they've just backed me into, they don't say it, but it's compassion, empathy, and understanding. I can't begin a forgiveness, a healing process, until I start with a basic understanding of the dynamic of what's going on. So here's a new understanding, a new way to look at it, that everybody's sick. Everybody's got stuff they're dealing with, right? I don't have to like it, but I can't, if I don't find a way to get free of it, I drag it around for the rest of my damn life. And this is one of the things the beast always uses to get us, isn't it? Brings up the past. Brings up the past. What about this? What about this? Remember this? Remember this? Now, if if that has all been healed, the beast has no traction. But we suffer from our history and our imagination, fear. That's why we suffer. And the beast is exquisitely designed to keep us in one of those two phases, because we're always off balance, right? So that's the basic plot. Then it says we ask God, so we pray, to have us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience, we would cheerfully grant a sick friend or someone you care about if you don't have any friends, right? Your dog, your cat, your goldfish. Here's a promise when a person offended, because people are gonna hurt you, people are gonna be people. I don't I if I have an expectation of your behavior, I'm always gonna be disappointed. If I expect you to be a certain way, say a certain thing, act a certain way at a certain time, I'm always gonna be disappointed. And I'll see that as an injury, but it's just a misplaced expectation. So when a person offended, we said to ourselves, this is a sick person. How can I be helpful? That's the opposite of vengeance and hate and wanting to attack, right? Another prayer, God save me from being angry. And we know anger is the secondary emotion. The primary emotion of anger is fear. Save me from being afraid, save me from being trapped in the futuristic nightmare that the beast is kicking up. Oh, okay. Thy will be done. So there's the question, God, what would you have me be? What would you have me think? I don't have to come up with the idea, I just have to ask God for the inspiration and the injection of this thought, right? Here's a here's a uh suggestion. Avoid retaliation or argument. Getting even doesn't get even when you retaliate, it just makes it worse, right? Argumentation is pointless. I have many people I've done amends with around this stuff, and you don't argue realities. This is the way I see it. I'm sorry, whatever. And they want to argue with you, but I'm sorry. You're entitled to see this the way you want to see it. But when you're arguing realities, you never get anywhere, except two people get irritated. Because the argument is I want you to co-sign my story, you want me to co-sign yours, and well, here comes Tommy, and that's never gonna work. So you start out with a conversation, for instance, rooted around forgiveness. Hi Dom, we're talking about forgiveness, rooted around a solution to this wound, and we end up talking about who's right and who's wrong. It's not gonna go anywhere, except you're gonna leave with another wound, another resentment, if you will. And then they say the reason we don't argue also is because remember, we wouldn't treat sick people that way. If we do, do argue, do retaliate, we destroy our chance of being helpful. Can't be helpful to all people, but at least God will show us how to take a kindly and tolerant view of each and every one. If we insist on it, I want to be, I it's not just I want to be a better person, I want to be free of this stuff. And there's, you know, there's I did an example, I did an amend with my parents, and I thought, there that's settled. This is really nice, right? And then a couple years later, something happened and it activated an old memory, and it came up, and I was right back to being pissed at him and being resentful, being hurt, right? And I went, God, that's weird. And the first thought, of course, is the beast is see, it wasn't real and you never did it. And then the second thought was maybe I've evolved to the point in my consciousness that God is allowing me to feel this on a deeper level because I'm ready to heal it on a deeper level.

Expectations Trigger Wounds And Judgment

SPEAKER_11 11:30

I have a I have a uh thing I'm doing. I'm having a big lesson this year around expectation. And uh and so in the beginning it was why isn't everyone like me? Is what I'm thinking. When I'm running around and the beast is just labeling all this stuff. What a lousy car, what a stupid color. Do you dress in the dark? Have you seen your hair? Just all the time, this running stream of poop in the background. I drive down the alley, my neighbors get in a garage, and the footing's there, and I look at it and I go, that's too small. It's like, what? What are you doing? This is the beast. It's just finding ways to disturb me. And then when something clicks and it really disturbs me, it drills down on it. So what I've come to believe for me is this. This might not make any sense to anyone, but um, so be it. When I find myself activated, triggered, if you will, I like activated better than triggered. But when an old wound is activated and it comes up because someone didn't do something I didn't know I expected them to do. Wrong response, wrong response, wrong time, wrong look, wrong everything, right? Or anything. And um so this is why I say to myself, now, I forgive you for not meeting my expectations. I was wrong, I'm sorry. I say it to me, not to you. Not to the person who just lit me up, because they don't know they lit me up anyway. But now listen to this. This is what I think I'm doing. When I say I forgive you for not meeting my expectations, I'm setting in motion the law of karma. You can't receive what you won't give. So I start out with the forgiveness, so the forgiveness can come back to me in letting go of the judgment. Does that make sense? A little bit? None at all? Yeah. So it's not your job to meet my expectations. It's not your job. I don't need that. I have a God for that. I have a higher set of principles for that. And when I get sucked into relying on the world or people, all of which are very flawed, I set myself up. I set myself up. So as I forgive you, I forgive me. That's we're forgiven as we forgive. And it sets in motion the law of karma. If I'm having a forgiving heart towards you, the forgiveness comes back to me. And in what form? Self-forgiveness. So that's a big one. Um, so I start with this understanding of the offender, and I practice this compassion and empathy. I can't forgive you on the basis of will. But what I'm doing with this is I'm moving the negative stuff out of my head, out of my consciousness, and I'm making space for compassion, for empathy, forms of love. And then God, I'm creating a space now in my consciousness for God to come in and change my heart. Because I, in and of myself, I don't have the power to change my heart, but I do have the power to pray. I do have the power to look at it differently and practice that different look. See what I'm saying? And so um I don't do the forgiving, I just create the space for the forgiveness to come through me. And sometimes it's a short period of time, sometimes it's a long period of time, depending on how much I have invested in the wound.

Forgiveness Without Excusing Harm

SPEAKER_11 15:15

I had a stepdaughter who uh came to us in her in her mid-twenties and informed us that her biological father had molested her from 16 to 18. And she was pissed, and she'd kept the whole thing a secret. And uh she was in therapy, and the therapy wasn't going well because the therapist was telling her what a victim she was, which just pissed her off more. And the last place she came was me because she wasn't too enamored with my my 12-step world. But she said, So, what do you guys do with forgiveness? And I said, Well, we let go of the judgment, and she equated forgiveness with acquiescing to the deed, saying it wasn't a big deal. You're not letting them off the hook. They'll have their own consequences for their choices and actions, as do you and I. So I said, here's the deal: we got to understand this guy differently. So we understand this is a sick person. Who would who would do that to his own daughter? I mean, come on. This guy has got a real problem between his ears. Okay, fine. Right. So I understand he's sick, and I understand that no one rides for free. So what I'm promising you, he'll get the consequences eventually. But what you have to do is let go of the offense, and I do that through that understanding this sick guy, and and uh she didn't like that. She went right through the roof. Well, so I didn't do anything. I said you did do something, you did make a mistake. Do you know what it is? She said, No, you kept it a secret. And so for the last six years, you've let him violate you in your mind every day. That's what we got to get free of. Our history. God heals it, and there's all kinds of different ways of approaching this stuff. I'm just sharing some of the stuff that I learned and what works for me. So the suffering is the lack of acceptance for what's happened in the past and what I'm afraid is going to happen in the future. So the answer to that is clean up the past so it has no traction. The self-forgiveness is a much harder deal. For me to forgive you than it's for me to forgive me. Right? There's too much history, there's too much shame, there's too much guilt, remorse, regret. But here's what I found for me. Um first I had to become aware of the harm that I'm perpetrating on this person or people, and then I gotta be aware of the harm it causes me. The harm, you know, when we study resentments, it's me drinking poison to kill you. It's just acid on her spirit, and I can't let go while I'm in the middle of justifying who I am by my grievance. So I had to change my behavior in it in whatever specific area it was, and the beast would keep reminding me of my past. Don't forget, you're this, you're that, you were a scumbag, you were didn't treat women well, you were horrible with money, whatever it was.

Self-Forgiveness Through Changed Behavior

SPEAKER_11 18:53

And when you set a new path, um, I can't tell you the whole story, we don't have the time, but I was a I was a user of women. I wasn't an abuser, but I was a user. And when I finally saw the truth of that in my sex inventory, I had to get a new ideal. So I got the ideal, now I gotta practice it. And I started the first person I practiced with was a homeless woman that came into our meeting, the name was Edith. Meloved Edith, and she was a piece of work. But over time, like she walked in the door and got that there she is. You can start with her. Lived in a filthy raincoat, she was a street woman, no teeth, drank Listerine, couldn't make eye contact. She came to the meeting and I I was sat by the door and I greeted her and she wouldn't talk to me or anything. And I said, Would you like a chair? And she sat down next to me and I got her a half a cup of coffee because she's always like this. That's how it started. And I honored Edith and I protected her as good as I could, right? And over time, she started coming out of the shell. I have no idea what her history was, but I'd open my hands, I'd say, Welcome, Edith, good to see you. And she'd put her fists in my hand and shake them like this. And uh, that's how it started. And then uh I was chairing the meeting, and in our meeting was fairly large, and it was, you know, keep your keep your shares to a couple minutes because there's a lot of people here, right? And Edith decided to talk. And I let her talk for 15 minutes, and afterwards, everyone came after me. Why are you letting her do that? And you don't let me do that, and really we just don't be. I said, listen, we honored Edith tonight. You know, it's probably been decades since anyone has even listened to her. When we sit in quiet and we let her bear witness to us, we're giving her an honor, we're giving her a space, we're saying, I see you, and you're valuable, right? And then that rolled out from there. And Megan knows some of the stuff without manner. That was near the end of a 20-year rollout, and uh so what happens is you start changing those behaviors, and the beast keeps going, yeah, well, you know, don't forget you haven't changed. You know, an attractive woman walks by and I have a lusty thought or something. The beast goes, see, see. No, that's an old reaction, but I didn't buy in, I didn't act on it. I said, Thank you. It just reminded me I got a ways to go. It's fine. You know, the objectification of women, that's gonna take some time. It did take some time, but it evolved over a 20 year period, and at the end, I would go up where Megan is at Hope Manor, and I did. Workshops with the women. And these women are usually pretty hard, rode hard and put away wet. They're coming off the street, they're coming out of prison. And uh Judith was the director of that, and she said, You don't these women love you?

SPEAKER_12 22:13

And I said, Yeah, right, whatever.

SPEAKER_11 22:15

But in the course of a year, every one of those women came up to me and said, You're the first man I've ever trusted. That's God putting a bow on it. That was 20, 20 years of rolling out. But that's an example of I have to change the behavior to get to the self-forgiveness because I can't forgive me on the basis of my will to forgive me. I have to prove to the beast that I've changed. When I do that, the beast leaves that alone. He's going, it's not gonna work anymore. I can't get him knacked out. Oh, okay, we'll try something else. How about fear of money? But it's always it's always doing something. But the self-forgiveness for me has been the greatest gift. Learning to change through the inventory process, learning to change the behaviors that's causing the suffering. Because what I do to you, I do to me. And we just build this wall and we're stuck behind it. And we have all these natural basic instincts, needs, and wants to be loved, to be affirmed, to be part of a community, to bond, all that. And it's impossible because I built this protective wall that isn't protecting me. That's another beast lie. This is gonna protect you from being hurt, but it's gonna also create a prison for you. So anyway, that's some thoughts on forgiveness, and I'd love you to share some of yours. What have you learned about forgiveness? What has forgiveness taught you? What's non-negotiable? When I have a non-negotiable, I got to pray about it. This I will never forgive. Okay, let's work on things, some things you're willing to forgive. And by the time you get to the never forgive, your heart's changed. Right? Because of the results you're getting. It's experience, it's experiential. You do these actions, you get results. They're undeniable because they're yours. And you know where it came from. So floor's

Group Shares On Getting Free

SPEAKER_11 24:16

open. Go ahead. Hi, Tom. You muted. Okay. Glad you made it. Who wants to go?

SPEAKER_09 24:34

You got some unforgiveness, Tom? Actually, I actually I do. You know, I didn't this is yeah, it's great to be here. It's great to celebrate my son's birthday. Um yeah, I think I I've got a couple of examples of um of people I really despised early on in my career, you know, bosses that were out of integrity and just a lot all these bad things. But then it came to a time when uh he hit hard times and got fired from the company, and and I I was helping him get a job someplace else. And uh he said, Well, we're you're really really not my friend, and I was my help. Hey, long story short, I forgave this person and really reached out to help, and then it cleared up all the feelings that I had. And then what it and then it went, it turned out to be the um I wasn't doing it, but he wound up at a company someplace, and it turned out to be a very, very the most powerful business relationship that I ever had. And not that I was looking for that, but that just that just uh yeah, that came to mind. But the most the most most freeing part was there was no anger, and I wasn't spending time saying he did this to me or he did that, or um and it's freeing, and I do look on occasion, I'll look for people if it's coming up and I'm really angry or there's something, I'll I'll look for opportunities to forgive, to forgive people. Um just myself. I I'm not speaking to them, if you will. But it works and I feel clear and free.

SPEAKER_11 26:09

So that's the benefit of forgiveness is I get free. It's enlightened self-interest. And as you go through these things, you don't realize how much those things you were clinging to had affected your consciousness, your being. And some of those things we clung to because it was a part of our identity, my woundology. This is why I'm the way I am, and I wrap all these offenses around me. So I don't want to let go of them because I'm getting something out of it. Self-pity. What fun. Who else? Thanks, Tom.

SPEAKER_10 26:49

Who else?

SPEAKER_04 26:56

Um, hi, I'm Allie. Um great to be here. Um, yeah, forgiveness has come up and in uh I also like in daily reflections, um, which uh yeah, like you said, little things that run through. Um I got a new sponsor like three or four years ago because I was gonna redo the steps, and I have not done anything. So basically, and I have a sponsee who I'm like, I am not the example because I've done the steps, but anyway, um I just had that like you know, I don't know, I probably really don't need to do them. Or um, I guess I was starting to think like if you had my mother, you'd be resentful because yeah, um, but what I did finally, literally four years later, um, or three, um, I started my fourth step, and um for the first time I actually saw I'm like, oh, there's me in here that I'd literally not seen before. And it was, you know, there are no heroes in the story of me and my relationship with my mother and myself, but um it was just very um like it was like, oh my god, wait a minute. Um, and it sort of ties in with forgiveness of um the more I recognize my part, um, you know, I guess it's forgiveness. It's to me, it's more like a letting go of that tightly gripped resentment. So it's a little bit of a softening of uh sort of the overall feeling. And um, it sort of came to a head. We're moving her into memory, memory care. Um she's more physically distressed than mentally sometimes. But um anyway, but so the last month, two months have been a lot of you know, interviewing to get her the care and then uh outside and it's anyway, so it's just been a whole lot of mom time and um I really, really struggle with it um because um I let it take over because it it does take a lot of time, but it just I just stew over it and I just she's so toxic. But anyway, that's her, and then again, it was remembering that, you know, um, you know, hey, I'm doing the best I can. I want to show up the best I can so that I don't then come home and you know pretend that the crappy mood I'm in or the guilt or whatever, that that's all her fault. I mean, I'm in there. And um, so the whole process of sort of again, um what am you uh self-forgiveness again is part of, and I sort of think of it's tied in with doing esteemable acts of like, you know, I'm showing up to the best of my ability and um I gotta turn over the rest because it really came to a head because I when I like with drinking, when I get so stressed about something, I look for relief. And I since I'm not drinking, I just, you know, these acting out in these old behaviors and just making everything worse. And without realizing how attached I am to this unfold situation and that I really need to go through it to again to, you know, forgiveness basically, you know, there's still part of me like going, she should not be forgiven. But there's a part of me that's really thinking I'm not doing her or me any favors, and just again, softening the whole perspective and again the changed behaviors of hey, is this how I want to be showing up each day? And um again, because um, and sorry to go on, but the last thing I'll just say is noticing how that behavior trickles into the other parts of my life and how I treat other people, and just again, of like, you know, softening towards her really helps me soften towards myself, towards other people, and you know, just gets me a little more right-sided. So um, yeah, just the whole thing of um four steps and fifth steps and resentance and new behaviors, and um, again, and just being, you know, my first thought is always you know, basically of her, but then it's like, no, that's my that's a reaction, that's not a response, and that's an old behavior. So, you know, what can I do differently um to benefit again, not only myself, but the people around me. So I'm really grateful to be here and um for this topic.

SPEAKER_11 31:33

Thanks, Ellie. You know, a couple of things. Um it's an act of courage to be willing to look at the inventory because it exposes us. It's not my part, it's all me. What's my mistake? Where am I at fault? Where am I to blame? So when I get this down and I'll look at it, I might have five pages of resentments, but the only common denominator is me. But I had to do this with my parents because I had a lot of uh hostility towards them growing up and then in my early recovery. And and uh when I got to the fourth column, it says, put out of your minds what your dad did and how it affected you, and ask yourself, what kind of son were you? Selfish, dishonest, fearful, inconsiderate, add anything you want. And I was. I was. That's something I can do about that's what you're doing right now, Allie, is you're changing who you're being with her. Yes, it's hard because I got decades of grievances, but I can tell you this from my own experience. When she's gone and you've shown up for this, you've stood up to it and done your duties, you'll you'll be guilt-free. Because you won't be have any of those voices saying, I wish I would have done this, I wish I would have done that, I wish I wouldn't have run away. It's hard. It's hard. And the thing it did for me was I took care of my mom for almost 12 years. And uh it really improved my prayer life. Because when I go out to manage her care two or three times a week, I had to pray. I had to pray because I don't want to be the son I was. I want to be kind, considerate, loving, compassionate. This is a woman who's put in her time and and there's some things I don't care for about her personality, but you know what? I'm convinced she did the best she could with what she had. So I'm gonna bring love, compassion, empathy, helpfulness. I'm not gonna bring more pain. Thank you. Who else?

SPEAKER_06 33:45

Andy, I'm an alcoholic. Andy, Roger, I love how the the topics just come to you uh throughout the week. This was a great one. Um, and you touched on it a little bit there of the the way the steps allow for the possibility of forgiving both ourselves, other people, other people forgiving us, right? I do the fourth step in the first two columns, you know, is all about other people's problems, you know, and then then what does it affect? Well, pour in you like all those, but then that fourth column, you know, what kind of a son, brother, husband, you know, was I, employee? How did I show off? And then, but as I'm going through that, those columns, my sponsor's writing down the character defects, which is like a column five, you know. So at the end of that, and by the way, when I'm telling him, he's saying, Oh yeah, me too. I did that. It did something similar. Well, that's not so bad, you know. And it's when sharing with someone else, you know, realize how much I carried a burden from those things. And then that list of defects, I didn't really like what I saw there. It didn't make me feel great, which is step six for me. Like, I don't want to be that guy. I can't do it by myself, so I got to ask for help and prayer and from other people. Step seven. And then with that, too, there was not necessarily a forgiveness of self, but I could finally understand the things that I had to make amends for, why I did it. If because of the way I looked at the world, it was selfish, self-centered, fearful. And so those actions that I did to hurt other people, that it it wasn't, it wasn't intentional to hurt them, but I'm acting out of out of fear and self-centeredness. So then I have the willingness to go in front of somebody and own up to that, you know, and say, here's how I showed up, which then allows for the potential of forgiveness by them, but I don't need it at that point because that's that's like a benefit. And then doing that in step nine puts my ass on the line where I I can't repeat that behavior now because I've done it. Whether I'm ready to stop lying or not, I've made those amends, and now I got to show up for it. And it's like this is all because the third step I say I'm gonna go for this thing, and I kind of don't have a choice. I get locked into doing these steps, and then what do you know? Like there's forgiveness of self, there's forgiveness of other people. I don't judge people as harshly as I used to because of going through that process. And then when things pop up, like I told you about with my brother, some some old hurt coming back up, right? I shared that with you with Tom. You know, talked about expectations, you know, and then heal at a deeper level. And then by opening up to that, you know, more recovery can come. So it's it's it's awesome. What a process.

SPEAKER_11 36:38

Yeah, it is. And the whole thing is a process of unburdening ourselves. Yeah. And it's you don't know how much that history has depressed you and suppressed you until you have the conversation, all of a sudden, oh, I feel much better. I had a conversation with a guy recently, and he told me uh about hating his father and some lies he made up about his father telling people. And uh he told me, he said, I've never told anyone this. And he told me, I said, Well, that's interesting. So now you know what you need to do. You need to go to those people that you told that lie to and correct it. And he reported to me today it was a tough conversation we had for a few hours, but he reported to me today, he went home and he had never had so much peace. Because you carry that secret and it burdens you, it weighs you down, and you chain you dragging around. It's not one secret, it's many secrets. And as you go through this process of reaching understanding and awareness, and then a change in attitude, you feel the burden come off, and you go, damn, I had no idea how much that was bothering me, how much it affected me. This process, it's really interesting too, isn't it? Who else? Thank you.

The Lord’s Prayer And Conditional Forgiveness

SPEAKER_07 38:15

Hey everybody, Paul Alcoholics. Hey Paul. Hey, um the the forgiveness topic tonight got got me, I I guess, um, just a little bit of about my own experience. Um, some of you know. I mean, I was I was grooved in the deep resignment, particularly for my mom when I was young. And you know, I wrapped the the victim blanket around me pretty tight uh for most of my life. So it was, you know, this has been forgiveness has been really uh, you know, it's it's it's coming to me, but it's coming to me. Um it's unfolding, you know, slowly over over time. So it is what it is. But one of the things that it got me thinking tonight was um the Lord's prayer and the the the you know the part that says forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And I I stumbled over that prayer for you know, since I learned it in in uh religion or catechism or whatever, and it had no no meaning or substance to me at all. But then there's you know, there's this little pamphlet that was written by Emmett Fox, and I just I went downstairs and I grabbed it. It's it's the Lord's Prayer, and you and he walks through it line by line, and he gives his interpretation. And there was this part that kept coming to me um while we were talking about this tonight, and I just wanted to share it. He says, Notice that Jesus does not say, forgive me my trespasses, and I will try to forgive others, or I will see if it can be done, or if I will forgive generally, I will forgive generally with certain exceptions. He obliges us to declare that we have actually forgiven and forgiven all, and he makes our claim to our own forgiveness to depend upon that. And that the first time I read this, I'm like, wow, you know, I totally missed that. Um, saying that prayer all these years. And it's just something that has stuck with me that you know that that self-you know, my enfoldment is conditional on um my ability to forgive everybody. Um, and you know, stuff just keeps coming up. I mean, you know, you think you get through it, and I think somebody said it earlier where it you know it hits at a deeper level, and then there's more work to be done. So it's it's definitely a process, but that that little that little hook in that prayer uh is is really a daily reminder to me to of the work that I need to be focused on. So that's all I got. Thanks.

SPEAKER_11 41:19

Thanks, Paul. I think this self-forgiveness thing that we've been touching on off and on is a life from a different viewpoint, changed attitudes and changed actions. And it takes time, it takes time, but as you grow in this, you'll find that things that used to be easy to do, like making a snap judgment about someone, all of a sudden they get uncomfortable and don't want to do it. That's I call it God coming in the back door. You know, we sit around and we make lists and we talk and we we we look at our resentment and all this stuff, and while we're doing that, God comes in the back door and changes us. And then the first change is always the obsession's gone. I have no idea when that happened. That's God's psychic surgery. No blood, no stitches, no pain. But we got to get distracted by doing what we call the work, right? And some of that does bring us to a new understanding, and that helps because that's an opening of the mind, a new understanding, a new way to look at the world. You know, you're not the only one that's carrying stuff around, Roger. Everyone's got a story, everybody is carrying something or some things. Everybody. Now that's a different view. Then it's a dog eat dog world that everyone is in it for themselves, right? Just keep your gun handy.

SPEAKER_10 42:58

Who else? Thank you, Paul. Come on, Doug.

SPEAKER_08 43:06

Hi, everybody. I'm Doug, an alcoholic. Hi, Doug. Great topic, Roger. You uh that guy coming in the back door has been in your back door this week.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 43:23

I think of some things that occurred to me in this journey. I happen to do a fourth and fifth with a chaplain. We're going through some people, obviously, that I had written down with resentments, and he says to me, Where's your name? I said, What do you mean? I'm I did all this stuff. He says, Where your name? Obviously, it's not on there. He says, Don't you think it belongs on there? No. No, I'm the one that uh, you know, I'm I'm the one that did bad uh you most of these people here. Yeah, he said uh you probably did, but you also did it to yourself when you did it. You belong on here. The other thing, I'm going through the same stuff in a meeting one time and uh another AA person says to me, says, Doug, do you believe in a higher power? Yeah, oh yeah. Do you believe your higher power forgives you? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You uh you have trouble forgiving yourself? Oh yeah, I I I've been a really bad person. He says, Who the hell do you think you are? And I kind of got my attention and he says, Hey, he said, Your higher power forgives your sins, right? Yeah, I I believe that. Then who the hell are you? That you can't forgive yourself. Which uh really caused me to understand a thing or two at that point in time. The other thing I I I remember hearing that really made a uh impression on me was I'm gonna sit around and and have a resentment continuing represent the resentment towards another person or persons or whatever. I become their slave. And they can mold me and shape me and turn me into whatever they want to turn me into. Now that pissed me off. But the big one that occurred to me I was reading one time about this lady who survived Auschwitz. And she was being interviewed, and they talked about, you know, what was going on and how she survived and whatnot. And she said, I forgive them. And the question, what do you mean? You you forgive them? Yes, she says, I needed to forgive them. I needed to forgive them for my own life. Just for my own life. And I thought, you know, if that person going through, which I have no clue what it was that she went through, can come out the other side and say, I forgive them. There's nobody in this world that I can't forgive. And what a learning lesson that those things uh occurring to me in life. And you know, when I think back on it, they probably occurred at just the time I needed them to occur. So yeah, God's been banging on my back door for a long time, and when I pay attention, uh there's some information there that's good for me, but only when I pay attention. So I'm grateful. Uh I I it's a it's a whole new way of life, but I also know, too, it's something I have to keep up front in my mind. Uh the the beast, Roger, the beast is still hanging around there uh waiting for the chance. Uh so I try and beat him to the punch. Don't always win, but it's uh uh I'm racking up some victories here as time goes on. Thanks. You know, thank you, Doug.

SPEAKER_11 47:19

About the beast. It's not about getting rid of the beast or killing the beast, it's about right-sizing the beast because what I've found is as I grow in understanding and I grow in my relationship to the creator, I expand my spiritual consciousness. The beast evolves too. Yeah, he's just right there, right? The yin and the yang. Yeah, exactly. Rhonda, did you want to tell us something?

When Forgiveness Turns Spiritual And Real

SPEAKER_11 47:48

I thought I saw you on mute when Doug did.

unknown 47:51

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

I'm Rhonda. Um, I remember uh an amends that was made to me. I um when I was 16, I hooked up with this guy because he had a motorcycle and tattoos and my dad hated him. And um we did so of course, yeah. And he ran around on me and treated me horribly. And of course, I stayed for 13 years and had two of his children. But I got sober like seven years before, and then he got sober. We were both addicts. He's more drugs than I was drugs and booze. And he all the running around, you know, like he would run around on me, run around on me, and then finally I'd have revenge sex with somebody. And you know, we were just young kid drug addicts, and we hurt each other in the most horrible ways. And uh, but we had two kids, and he called me to make amends. He was going to NA, not AA, but he called. And I think I had done enough work on myself where I had created that space where forgiveness could because he started apologizing for how he treated me. And suddenly uh something just released from me. It was um, we were just dumb kids. I know we we didn't know what we were doing, and and something passed between us and it was spiritual. It wasn't anything else. And I tell you, I've not felt an ounce of anger towards him ever since. I laugh about it now. It's like, yeah, he ran all around. It was the 80s, you know, you're being crazy. So that I wanted to comment on, and then just the fact that forgiveness can lead to self-forgiveness because I feel like that's what blocks me off from my higher power is just that shame. Shame. And I'm really trying to work past it and just yeah, I'm working on a four-step. I feel so sorry for my sponsors. She's like this four-foot Norwegian lady. She looks like a librarian, like a conservative librarian. The stuff she's gonna hear me say. I'm kind of scared for her. But I'm glad to be here tonight with you guys. I missed a couple, but I downloaded them so I could stay caught up. Good, good. I really like this not meeting meeting. So thanks.

SPEAKER_11 50:34

Welcome to the unmeeting. You know, you said an interesting thing there when he we were in that conversation with him. Something passed between us. And I have this experience a lot doing this, but especially one-on-one. When I sit down with a sponsee, there's you, there's me, and the third one, and that's God. And we get down into that stuff and we get honest, we get naked, and metaphorically, and something passes between us. It's the power of God, it's the truth, and the walls come down, and this incredible experience occurs. And it's what a blessing, huh? What a blessing. And we almost had to die to get it. I mean, it doesn't make any sense at all. I had to burn my life down to get a new one. Who else?

SPEAKER_03 51:35

I'll share super briefly. Uh Megan Alcoholic.

SPEAKER_12 51:39

Hi, Megan.

SPEAKER_03 51:40

Um, I think one of the things that always struck me most when and still does when going through this section of the book or writing an inventory is this idea of praying for myself, right? God saved me from being angry. Um, God helped me to show them, right? Change my actions. God helped me to take a kindly and tolerant view of them, change my perspective. Um, because again, like you were talking about, Roger, and many other people have referenced um this idea that if I try hard enough, right, uh I can I can will myself into not having these negative feelings and um and forgiving, or if I just act as though I've forgiven, but I'm not inviting God in to uh change my perceptions and save me from my anger, um, then it gets even worse because now I'm a hypocrite um who's pretending to take these or taking actions of forgiveness, um, but that fierce resentment is is still there. So this idea of you know, God meets me in my action, right? Um coupling God's power um with my willingness to to seek him. So thank you.

SPEAKER_10 53:02

Thanks, Megan.

SPEAKER_11 53:15

Here's a thought. Um this isn't about erasing the memory. How do I know if I've forgiven you? Because when the memory comes up, it has no power. I can't forget it, but I have forgiven it because it does not have any power, and that's another way of affirming the progress that I made. That that's removed, and I know it's I remember it, but when I used to remember it, I used to plan the murder. I get the shovel, the body bag, the trunk, the whole deal. Now when I remember it, I just go, hmm. It doesn't have any bite, it doesn't have any life left in it. And that's a gift too, because then I realized, boy, I've I've been brought a lot further than I thought.

SPEAKER_10 54:04

Well interesting discussion today, huh? If you're listening online, nothing's wrong.

SPEAKER_11 54:24

We're just getting encouraged for the next person to talk. Take your breath, let it go.

SPEAKER_05 54:35

Okay, Dave I'll

The Softening Power Of Honest Prayer

SPEAKER_05 54:37

call it.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Hi, Dave.

SPEAKER_05 54:39

Hi. So um this was early, early in sobriety. There was a situation where I was uh in a relationship with somebody, and um long story short, I got my heart very, very broken and shattered. Um I was uh it was suggested to me that I talk to a gentleman, um, kind of a spiritual guidance that may or may not be on this Zoom call. And uh he we were sat down, we talked about it, and uh he said, You have to forgive her. And I believe my response was F that. And uh he said, You have to forgive her. And uh what I was told is that he said, I don't know about your God, but my God's perfectly fine with saying, God, please help me forgive that bitch. And I said, Go on, and uh he he explained, you know, it it's gotta start somewhere. So quite literally, my prayers were God help me forgive this bitch. And what happened, and Allie alluded to it on the softening, and that's exactly what happened. Then then it then it dropped the uh colorful word and just and it turned into forgive her, and then it turned into forgive, and and then this person's name, and uh it took quite some time um for the forgiveness to be there, but you know that that understanding of that I needed that forgiveness for me, and just to not walk around with this huge resentment and this hatred. Um but uh it it was exactly what I needed to hear at the time because you know I was spoken to in the exact same level that I was at, and uh, I don't think anything else would have uh given me the opportunity to forgive this person. That's all I got.

SPEAKER_11 57:01

Yeah, it's interesting because while I'm saying the prayer, I'm changing and I don't even know it until I get to the point where I go, Oh, that's feeling different. When did that happen? Right. You always I always only see the result of the prayer after it's already been there a while. And oh, I'm not feeling that way anymore. And then I look at the when did that happen? I don't know. I just know I I said these insincere, profane prayers and they changed, and I changed, and who knew, right? But if we don't take the action, I don't think God cares how we pray, obviously, right? He cares that we pray because that's a connection with that higher authority, that higher being, that higher consciousness that resides in all of us, the divinity of man. When we activate that, things that appear to be miraculous happen. But when we're just running on self, what happens is the same thing over and over again, and the hole just gets deeper. We got time for one more. Anyone?

Long-Term Healing And A Deeper Level

SPEAKER_11 58:21

Hi, Kirsten.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

When I first came into the rooms, I was blessed with some really a lot of you know, old sobriety, wisdom kind of thing. And yet it's kind of like what Dave was saying spoke in a way that resonated with me because a lot of these concepts were just too heady for me. Like I when I arrived at the rooms, I thought forgiveness was for the other person, like someone would beg my forgiveness, or I hope kids, or whatever, you know, or or it was just like something that you grant someone else so they can move on. And when she said, I don't forgive people for them, I forgive them for me. And I was sitting there just going, What? Say more. Because literally, I just didn't have that kind of, you know, I thought you that to get forgiveness was some sort of a granting of you know, favor or something along the line. And uh anyway, it wasn't available to me until I got to AA. I certainly didn't believe that I was ever worthy of forgiveness that it was available to me because I just knew I was a piece of shit, you know. And so um when I started uh with this, I had on my list of people that I needed to make amends to, there was a no way in hell list at the end. And that was my ex-husband. No way in hell am I gonna make amends to him? He was abusive, he was horrible, he was blah, blah, blah, everything. And but then, of course, as we do, when we do our program, we we just we we figure out our part in it. And of course, you know, I had a huge part in his behavior toward me. And I started to do that prayer of, you know, I pray for them everything I want for myself, you know, health, happiness, whatever. And and of course, he he came off that list of no way in hell, and eventually, and I'm not saying it happened overnight or anything, but I remember speaking at some meeting at some point, three, four years maybe into sobriety and into recovery, I should say, and I it just came out of my mouth. I love him, my first husband. And because I was able to see and and see my part in it, but also that he is him and I am me, and wasn't the greatest husband, but he's an excellent dad to my child. And now, I mean, we fought for years over time with our child, you know, like we shared custody, and you had these many hours, and you had these many days, and you had this holiday, and I didn't, and you owe me time, and blah blah blah. And now I see him with my daughter and her family, and I'm just so happy for all of them. There's no envy, no jealousy, no anything. And for that to have transformed my view of him over this many years, and it's been a good long time now, 30 some years since we parted. Um that's pretty amazing because I I very often, when we were going through our separation and custody fight and divorce and all that stuff, I very often laid in bed at night. I wish he would just die. God, you know, all my problems would be over if he were dead. I wished him dead, like with huge sincerity. And now I just can't even believe that was me. And um, in observing that, it's all about this idea that, you know, for me to have forgiven him and of course forgiven myself as well for that just horrible relationship. We got Maddie out of it, my my child and my grandson though. So, I mean, of course, I'm grateful as anything now. Um, but to just have transformed my perspective of this human being. Um, that's as Roger said, it appears to be miraculous because I loathed him for so long. And and um on another note, well, I guess that's enough of a share. We're kind of running out of time, but I I just it is always for me that I forgive the person, so I don't have to carry the resentment, I don't have to carry the judgment. And um, once in a while, like happened last weekend for me, my mom came up, and it's been 19 years since my dad died, and short story is she chose to pull the plug. And I've never really, you know, understood how she could possibly have done that because there was hope, and she didn't think so, and she wasn't willing to do the deal, basically. Um, and I thought I was over it. I thought I'd done a lot of work about compassion for my mother and who she is, and where she was in life, and what she still had to live for after he was gone. And by the way, they weren't um she she wasn't really crazy about my dad. So um so much judgment came back last weekend because it'd just been 19 years since that day. And I just thought, man, I I thought I was at peace with this whole thing, you know, and I was just not on Saturday morning. I was just not. So luckily my home group met right after that, literally about an hour later, and I got to talk about it, and it's still bothering me, and I still feel like I probably need to write a fourth step about it. What you know, what is my part in all of this? And I'm sure I'll find something. But um as we keep doing this stuff and observing how we get better at life, I'm I'm uh we have a new consciousness, however many years later it is. And and hopefully I'll be able to hopefully this resentment or this judgment about my mother is pointing me at something new I need to see, and and I'm confident it will, because it always does. And with that, I'll pass.

SPEAKER_11 1:04:21

Thanks. I think uh it's pointing you at the topic. Yeah, I think I gotta forgive her at a deeper level. Again, though. Again, I have to. It's a deeper healing, it's a gift.

Closing Prayer And Goodbye

SPEAKER_11 1:04:34

Yeah. All right, you guys want to close with a prayer? Unmute yourselves. I'll help.

SPEAKER_10 1:04:45

Okay. Um, third step. Everyone on that one.

SPEAKER_12 1:04:55

Okay. God? I asked you.

SPEAKER_11 1:05:22

Well, that was perfectly clear.

SPEAKER_12 1:05:26

All right, I'll see you in a couple weeks. Thanks, everybody.