#107 Stuck on the God Idea

Nothing binds me, except my thoughts, and nothing limits me except my fear, and nothing controls me except my beliefs. What stands in the way is my belief system. I need to be open to new ideas/concepts. Instead of my arguments about the God idea and my unwillingness to give myself to it. I can ask, forget the god idea, what would I be willing to give myself to? Some examples might be Love, Tolerance, Forgiveness, prayerfulness ect. This also includes a great group discussion. Enjoy and thank you for your support!

Transcript

Welcome Support Link And Milestones

SPEAKER_10 0:03

Roger, alcoholic. So presents October 11th, 1978. If you're listening online, you've joined the gathering. It's good to have you. And at the bottom of the description of the topic is a link. If you'd like to become a supporter of our efforts, our outreach, please click on that and you can set up a donation there. The tally right now is we're over 10,000 downloads. Pretty amazing. 58 countries and 900 some cities, depending on the week. It goes between 750 and 9 something. But anyway, amazing nonetheless. So, Kelly, you got a camera working. Good girl. So this has been coming up a lot for me lately. So I'm just going to share some thoughts on it. A couple of you already done this with, but um this God idea, stuck on the God idea. We were uh at our Monday meeting, our home group, the uh Great Expectations, it's a big book study. There are a lot of new guys there that are struggling with this concept of God and wondering if their prayer work. Now, when we talk about that from the recovery side, it's your own conception, right? When we but it it's the same challenge for a person of faith. You have to find a way to establish and grow your relationship with what you call God or higher power. It doesn't matter if it's if it's Judaism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, or 12-step recovery, or any other thing. So I've got to have a relationship with this thing. And so one of the ways that I've done this with groups before that that helps clear some of the muck is the question isn't what or who is God? The question is, what would you give yourself to? What are you willing to give yourself to? And usually the response is so let's start from the other side. What would you not be willing to give yourself to? What aspects of God would turn you off? And these often we're bound up by the belief system we were given that didn't work for us. So when we rejected that, we assume we rejected the God idea with it. So I've got some beliefs, I've got some ideas, but they don't serve me, right? So what would I not give myself? I would not give myself to a God, what? That is punishing, that is wrathful, that is, you know, is a trickster. Right when I'm getting my stuff back together and things are working, I get tripped up. When it's just those kinds of things, right? I I I can't I can't fathom giving myself to something I can't trust. So then we go to the other side of the page and we go, well, what do you think are higher attributes that you can give yourself to? And uh we come with things with peace, love, prayer, meditation, things like that. Benjamin Franklin had an interesting list. His daily inventory was on these uh virtues self-restraint, acceptance, silence, orderliness, firm determination, thrifty, industrious, sincerity, justice, moderation, cleanliness, serenity, morality, humility. That was uh Ben's. And we have our own, you know, in our tenth step we watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, fear. And what do we do? We turn it around. We turn it around with prayer, meditation, our faith, our what we do believe in, right? Forgiveness, love, tolerance, for instance. So when you look at most, I don't know if I can only speak from my own experience, but the idea of God, here's another way to come at this. What hangs me out? Nothing binds me except my thoughts. Think about this. My thoughts are what binding, nothing limits me except my fears. Because the fears are the gatekeeper, right? And the thoughts go with the fears. Nothing controls me except my beliefs. And what we know is we always act out of what we believe. So, again, whether you're practicing a faith or trying to do 12-step recovery, your beliefs are going to be the policemen that stand at the gate of your thinking. And what is what is all this asking, whether it's religion, whether it's 12-step recovery, it's all asking us to change. It's asking us to evolve. And it sounds real simple, but as you all know, and we all have experienced, there's nothing harder than changing my thinking. Why? Because this is the way I've always thought. This is the way I've always seen it. So I can't imagine it without it, right? So now I've got to be able to. I've told you some of this story. I was a I was a musician, and all the while, the 30 plus years I was playing, I thought I was an atheist. And we had a big reunion a few years back, and and I was looking through all the songs that I wrote. They were all about power and love. And God was talking to me the whole time, and I couldn't even hear it in my own songs. So it was there all along. This is like the footprints in the sand thing. You know, you said just be with me, but there was this whole area where there's only one set of footprints, and God says that's when I was carrying you. And I was being carried decades before I came to the idea. So same with prayer. I don't, I think all prayer is acceptable, but prayers are effective to different degrees depending on the attitude which they're dispensed with. For instance, uh, when I started praying, it was Mel the Marine, who told me I should pray, and I kept telling him I'm an atheist, and I kept uh I kept thinking maybe he was senile or something, he couldn't figure out what I was saying because he kept asking me, and he'd say, every day, every morning, and every night, hit your knees and thank God for another day of sobriety. And I this is about selfish self-centeredness. Over the many months, I became quite fond of Mel. And so um, I had imagined in my self-importance that Mel was sitting up late at night drinking coffee with his wife, going, I got this guy in the meeting on Wednesday, and I'm just trying to get him to pray, and I can't, I can't figure out how to get him off the diamond. I'm so worried about him, and I can't sleep, and all that. No, no, no. He wasn't doing that. That was my fantasy, right? But so I started praying. And so I could come back in and Mel say, Are you praying? I go, Yeah, Mel, I'm praying. He goes, get it, boy. And he'd give me a big bash on the back. And uh he never asked me, are you praying the way I told you to pray? Are you on your knees? Are you praying? Thank you for another day. He didn't say that at all. He said, Are you praying? I said, Yeah, because I didn't want to lie to him either. Okay, and uh I was praying, and what I was praying was, thanks for another shitty day. And it took about 10 months for me to realize this prayer was working. I had I had produced a few hundred really crappy days almost consecutively, and and I think that's our what we call our failure, our pain, our stumbling, that's the pointer back to the creator. That's just the the thing that's saying what you're doing isn't working, and but I don't have a way to interpret it in the beginning, so we interpret it from our experience, and I'm going, well, that shitty day prayer seems to be working. I wonder if I tweak the prayer if I could get a little different result. And that's how it started. I didn't I didn't have a concept of God that I could work with. I had in the beginning, I had this phenomenon. I I quit drinking and doing drugs, and I detoxed in a flop that I was doing with two other guys. And I didn't know that was the last time I was going to drink or do drugs. I did not. It took about five days. I'm back in the clubs playing, and uh it's in the tenth set. I've been placed in a position of neutrality. Haven't even worn it off, worn off, sworn off the booze, haven't sworn it off at all. So for you guys joining us late, we're talking about uh different ideas of God and how we get stuck with that process. So I started with this phenomenon. This is odd, I don't know what's going on, but clearly something's happened because I'm I'm in the middle of the greatest vices of my life: free booths, free drugs, and available women. And it's all there right in front of me. The only thing that's changed is I don't have any attraction to it, it's not talking to me. And I thought it was really odd, but I didn't think it would last. And uh then that evolved, and I started going to meetings. I didn't go to meetings because I wanted help. I went to meetings to hide. You don't have to use your real name. You don't have to declare anything if you don't want to. And sometimes there's a little food. And the big point was there was no one looking for me there. Because when I got sober, everyone was looking for me. The cops were looking for me, lawyers were looking for me, ex-wives were looking for me. I mean, bad guys were looking for me, the good guys were looking for me. So that phenomenon turned into a mystery because I didn't know how I was staying sober. Actually, I was staying abstinent. But the point is, I was being held the whole time. First by the love and tolerance of the men in that meeting, because I was not an easy guest. I was loud and I was profane, and they put me in my place and said, you can be here, but you can't do that. And I tested them a few times, and they were quite serious about it. So it's straightened out my behavior. The other thing that happened was I'm watching these people, these men come into the meeting that are just on fire for God, and their new sponsor and AA, and they're drunk in a few weeks. And I'm sitting there with a really crappy, belligerent, closed-minded, intolerant attitude, and I'm not drinking. That's a puzzle. That's a puzzle. Because I wasn't I wasn't ready to give myself to it because I didn't know what it, I didn't have an idea of what it was, right? And so I became fascinated by this thing. So what is holding me in this place is their love and their tolerance. They didn't like me, but they love me. There's a difference. They love me, they wanted the best for me, and they knew if I got out of there, I was probably dead. Right? And they tolerated me. So from the human side, I got love and tolerance. From the God side, I got grace and mercy.

SPEAKER_07 12:21

Hi, baby.

Step Prayers And Being Of Service

Group Shares On Spiritual Blocks

SPEAKER_10 12:22

Nope. I got grace and mercy. The unmerited gift. That's grace. The mercy, I didn't get what I deserved. Because I didn't deserve to be there. I didn't be deserved to be around those men. I didn't deserve to be in those rooms. And I was not a willing or or a participating member, you know. I was just kind of a pain in the ass. That was good for everyone else's practice of serenity and acceptance. But when you look now, you look at our our most used prayers, the third and the seventh step prayer, everything we're doing here is to be a maximum service to God and our fellows. It's not for me, it's for you. And this is interesting because the law of karma is you can't get what you can't give. So it what comes back to you is always what you're putting out. So I'm putting out anger, I'm putting out prejudice, I'm putting out negativity, and all I'm getting back in my life is negativity. So the third step where I'm offering myself to this power to build with me and do with me is the power wishes, right? Then I'm asking, relieve me of the bondage of self, but it's not for me. It's that so I can better do the mysteries will, right? Then I'm asking to have my difficulties taken away, not for me. So it bears witness to Tom, what God can do in my life. And then I just want to bear witness to those I would help with that power, that the love, and that way of life. And then the request is may I do that will always, which is humanly impossible for me. But I'll tell you what, it starts out once in a while and it grows because this thing, these principles like tolerance, like love, like kindness, like helpfulness, like forgiveness. When I can forgive, then forgiveness can come back to me. It's reciprocal. When I can begin to love, to care about you, to want for you your highest good, then it can come back to me. But you can't receive what you won't give. There's an English proverb, the hand that gives gathers. That's the same as the karmic law, right? So Simon said, We're my creator. I'm not willing you should have all of me, good and bad, which implies I don't know which is which. And it's about totality, which again I'm not capable of, but this is the intent. I pray that you now remove from me every single defective character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows, not for me. It's always for you and God, for you and God, so I can forget about me. Grant me strength as I go from here to do your bidding. I'm gonna need the energy to apply my will to, to take the correct actions to move me in the right direction. It's just a direction, it's not a destination. I just need to go from selfish self-centeredness to starting thinking slowly, moving towards other-centeredness, thinking about you, thinking about him, thinking about her, then thinking about God or this power, this mystery. That's what the phenomenon turned into me. It turned into a mystery. And the other thing I think that happened, and this is all obviously in retrospect. Um I believe that the testimony of the people, this is the power of our stories. I believe when we sit here and I'll throw a topic out, and you guys start testifying, you start telling your experience of this. That's why there's over 10,000 people listening to this. Because they're getting off on your experience. And I think our experience is the most powerful thing we have. Because I think what happened for me, again, interpretation, as I sat there with my closed mind, and those guys were giving their testimony, we're going through steps, we're going through big books. They're telling me their lives in in increments, right? And not everyone, but there were a number of those guys you listen to when you hear it here in your heart, and you go, man, that's it. That is the deal. He's telling the truth. And I think the weight of those stories, the weight of that testimony, subconsciously was wearing down my arguments. Because here in my head, I was still, as far as I knew, the same jerk that I was when I came in. And then one time, after many times through the book and the steps, one time, we got to the third step, and I said, I'm going for it. I didn't say it to you, to the group. I said it to me. I'm going for it. I don't even know what it is, but I can give my I can turn my will and my life over to care of the mystery. That makes sense to me, or the Buddha, or Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit, or whatever your deal is. Turn it over if that's what makes sense to you. Because whatever this power is, we call it God, we'll honor the request. Because God has many names and faces. Obviously. There's over 40,000 denominations of Christians. So there's a couple hundred thousand recognized religions. So it doesn't matter what you call it, it matters that you call it, right? Am I calling it? Am I calling it? What are my results? What are my results? Welcome, Lauren Kevin. So let's open it up now, and you guys can talk about what you learned about the blocks to establishing your relationship with the power greater than yourself and the benefits of it, and how you got there, you know. And some may still be stuck and want want to ask some questions. So the floor is open.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Hi, I'm Melissa and I'm an alcoholic. Hi, guys. Um, the reason why I decided to go first was because it was just very clear to me what my block was once I I just recently had the block faced. So after working these steps and talking like we were, like you just said, Roger, about um our experience being the most powerful thing and being honest and truthful with your heart, heartful testimony, and just listening and speaking and listening and speaking and then meditating and honest, sincere desire to get close to my creator was the was the force. Like I just really wanted to get to know my higher power. Um, and with all of the support that I've had, I've been able to just really understand myself and what was blocking me. And um, I have a pastor at my church who I also speak with. And I just said one day to that person, I don't know how to let myself be loved. I think is my problem. I my my sponsor um in AA Susan had said, um, you have a glass wall up. You'll let everybody know what's going on with you, but you won't let anybody in. And so that really helped me understand that I had um fear of intimacy, fear of connection, fear of allowing you to love me. Because if I let you love me, you could destroy me, which made sense to me. And so once I realized that that was the problem, I'm like, well, humanity can hurt me, but God's not gonna hurt me, you know. So I'm like, well, well then why can't I let him love me? So I just said to the pastor, I said, like, I don't know how to let God love me. And the pastor said, Have you ever asked your higher power to let it help it let you love it? And I was like, no, that's that's kind of neat. So I asked one day in prayer, and I just started crying because I sincerely wanted the help. And like you just said, Roger, um, it doesn't matter what, it matters that you call it. And if you go for it, even if you don't know what it is, and you turn it over, it will honor the request. And it did. I felt it in my heart. And the minute I said, Will you please help me let help me let you love me? That was the floodgate. And I've been feeling it more and more every day because I want it. And I think that was the secret magic sauce was like asking it to help me. And the more I ask it to help me be strong, be um courageous. Um, in my in my attempts to do God's will, the more it I get the courage and the strength to do it. Um, but it comes from a genuine desire to want it, I think. Like, and I and in order to want it, I have to be ready to want it. And it's so it's just baby steps toward it. But like like it says in this program too, sometimes you have. to be willing to be willing, whatever. It's just the you know, the interest will grow, like you even said earlier. Um may I do that will always and then it will grow. You know, the more the more I um uh what's that called what is that saying um what you think about expands what you focus on expands right so I've just been focusing on being gentle soft sweet tender all my favorite attributes of my creator that I think my creator is my my higher power is sweet gentle tender gentleness softness and I just want to be that as much as possible because I think that's the will of God is to be those sweet gentle tender um kindness and just softness so that's that's all I got I I feel like I'm kind of rambling at this point but that's how I feel about the topic today.

SPEAKER_10 23:06

Thank you. You know the uh this is about establishing connection establishing a relationship but it's about connection and when you connect you feel it because what Jesus was teaching was the divinity of man. The praetor lives within me and it's just been eclipsed by all the noise in the world and the duality right so in our step work we're just removing all the ideas that block us from having that experience similar to what Melissa was just talking about. So I got to get in front of the disconnects my fear is a disconnect. I cannot be having a great day and then have something activate an old memory or something and fear comes up or I get a shame buzz and I'm off again. And that dis-ease is the gift that God implanted in us to tell us you're off the beam come back over here come back over here when it's sunny and warm and everything's fine.

SPEAKER_05 24:08

You know it's not a punishment it's a redirection thanks Melissa well Andy I'm an alcoholic Andy that was great um the you you talked about the 10th step in there and in it you sent something along the lines of we always act out of what we believe and when I when I look at what a 10th step would have looked like for me for 35 years acting out of shame and fear versus what it is now you know and it's like go down the list resentful yes dishonest check selfish oh yeah you know do I owe apologies? Yeah I'm not gonna make them but I do you know and like go all the way down that line what it was are you do I have something to share? No I'm not telling anybody anything you know and it was that whole list every day without even realizing that it was because of shame and fear. And then you know in order to open to the new ideas it had to be out of out of my own and at that point I meet you and Paul you talked about your struggle you know and that it took years well you saved me from having to go through that and showed it's not that complicated principle start with the principle you know pick out can you turn your will in your life over the care of honesty about tolerance love compassion you know and those things then start to grow and now when I do a 10 step it's not perfect but at the end of it am I thinking of ourselves or others there's a whole lot of others throughout the day without having to consciously think about like okay now don't be selfish now Andy do the opposite it just it just flows because it's a it's practice right so appreciate that reminder today.

SPEAKER_10 26:04

And to your point it is practice and we're practicing something all the time we have to have an awareness of what we're practicing. Fear is a practice resentment's practice it's a way of seeing and being in the world and it informs our actions yeah that's great. Who else the other piece of that Andy is that's the answer to why did I get sober the way I got sober? Why did why did it have to be that way it had to be that way so when I met guys like Andy I could tell him what my experience was and he'd go I sure don't want to do that you know and so that's the promise in in the big book our darkest past will become our greatest asset I have a PhD in what not to do that's good.

SPEAKER_06 26:55

Thanks Andy who else Tom's getting ready I can see it who else I I am get I am getting ready yeah no thank you you always can see the wheels turning you know it's so beautiful I I I I um somebody said just said connected and I and I look forward to this uh to this call because I feel connected with uh uh with all of you on the call and um you know actually when I'd say that what whether whether I was coming to the call and I'm I'm alcoholic I'm an alcoholic and uh rather than thought I was coming to that with help for my drinking that really I I really come to the call for a sense of connectedness. And um I keep coming back and I know I've said it but I keep coming back I've just really in the last few months been so focused on you know being powerless. And uh it's just so beautiful that that I get how powerful I am when I can say and really believe that I'm powerless. And it it's um you know and I think that's the that's the um and I've also really been thinking within within sobriety and I got a real scare this week because actually I've been sober about five years but a buddy of mine took uh talked to me and he would just tell him he says yeah I I was sober at one point I didn't know this at one point for about five years but now I've really got this system and how he measures out drinks the exact amount it's just two ounces at this time and then the clock goes off and then it's two and I'm like oh my God you know but I do see in a way I you know one I couldn't do it you know I'd go back and I'd be back to you know drinking drinking a bunch but the connectedness and I really think you know whether we speak of our higher power and my case when I speak of God I really my most important job at all times but particularly at this point in my life is my relationship with God. And if I'm right with God I can be that gift to my my my wife my children my grandchildren others who I come in contact with and um so connected toe whoever said it was just so so right on I just feel so connected with all of you and we're here we're we're connected for the right reasons and we're all frail we we all have our own stories that and most of the story and most of the time I try to keep myself separate and apart over all the years to build up a case that I whatever was different from you be or better than you or this but wouldn't let you get to know me because if you were going to get to know me you'd think oh wow that guy's not so good was a bad person. So it's it's hiding out and sobriety's been a gift of connectedness.

SPEAKER_10 30:00

So and that hiding out is the prison I'm a prison of prisoner of my beliefs my ideas and I can't I can't reach out I can't connect with anything because I'm locked in that prison of fear and shame.

SPEAKER_09 30:17

Yeah powerlessness though and so on one level it's an affront to the beast it's an affront to the ego isn't it but on another level it's an opening up of our hearts to a breath of fresh air because if I can't embrace the idea that I'm powerless I can't reach for another power so in our darkest most degraded moments what I call the bottom when I'm out of ideas completely out of ideas that's when the breakthrough happens who else thanks Tommy I can go hey everybody Paul alcoholic hi Paul hi um so I was reading something earlier today that I that I just pulled up on I'll just share a brief snippet of it. It's this author is talking about um something she's termed toxic toxic silence. And she writes for over five years I actively participated in one of the most toxic silences of my life I was in a romantic relationship with someone who wouldn't publicly date me because they weren't open about their sexuality. At the mercy of someone else's comfort or lack thereof I participated in silencing myself in public places around family members with friends at work even in the grocery store. This kind of silence brought on by shame creates long-lasting damage and knots to be untied for years to come. Silence where love cannot prevail is a place of toxicity a place of stunted existence and that's that what you said earlier about you know we're um kind of limited by our own beliefs and you know Tom and Melissa talked a little bit about you know the glass wall or the the facade that we put out and that one of my blocks was the illusion that you know the solution lies in the external in you know in in man's world as as we say and the idea that there you know was divinity within me was a very foreign concept to me um in the beginning and it and I think once once I was able to you know listen to testaments listen to people's stories and really what what was happening I I believe now looking back on it is there that toxicity was being broken by the connection of our spirits together you know the divinity in each of us connecting and the resonance that you know came out of that for me was really what you know kind of what got the the feet moving forward for me. And you know that's you know the benefits are immeasurable. It's you know being able to connect with people on a much different level.

Demonstration Amends And Integrity

SPEAKER_10 33:29

It's being able to recognize that toxicity for me which was just living the lie of alcoholism and what that silence ultimately was doing you know not only to me but everybody around me my family my friends um the lies the you know just the avoidance of of of anything that would you know um again spark um that bottom that that is needed to to be able to make a breakthrough so those are just some of the thoughts I had um that's all I got thanks thanks Paul that description reminds me of the the unexamined life right I'm living an unexamined life and I'm suffering and I don't know why good one Paul you know another piece of this I think the two biggest strengths we have one is our story and our stories are stories of transformation they're not stories of I'm not drinking anymore they're not stories of abstinence they're stories of this is where I started and this is where I am now and you can't get where I am now from that guy that I was 48 years ago. It's impossible. So there's the transformation the other piece is our story and then the other piece is our demonstration yeah a lot of times a lot of times I've got guys talking to me about worried about their children and whether they'll trust us and their partners and stuff and and uh just say the biggest thing you got is your demonstration just keep demonstrating that you're stained sober and that you can admit when you're wrong. I mean one of the things I was a single parent and and uh one of the most helpful things I did was oh well I have a slipper I have a temperature but I slam a cupboard and I turn around and look at my nine year old boy and he's looking at me like he's terrified I sit down I say Zach Dad made a mistake that's not the kind of dad I want to be I got scared and I slammed the cupboard has nothing to do with you. Kids understand that they don't understand mental obsession and phenomenon of craving they don't get that but they understand authenticity and genuineness right they understand love because all your kid wants to know is am I loved and am I safe and ultimately I'd say that's what all of us want to know am I loved and am I safe thanks Paul who else go ahead Dinah is it Dinah or Dina hi it's Dina hi Roger um your camera's off yes I have my camera off because you're recording well we're not recording voices faces oh okay okay we're just recording audio i should have I should have made that clear in the beginning no that's okay yep anyway go ahead yep hi I'm Dina I'm an alcoholic hi Dina there you are so um just a couple things for me um uh how I found my connection with higher power how I found my connection with God um when I entered the program I um um I didn't have I had a religious connection um through church but I didn't have that spiritual connection and like working these steps working the program and having you know a really strong sponsor and people that I surround myself with in the program um that are really doing the deal um that all helps strengthen my spiritual connection and it's funny I was laughing earlier because you said Roger about um talking to your kid it's like in my profession you know or in my personal life um you know talking to my kids um or to my son at this time but um I do that I actually say you know when I was wrong why I did something and how can I show up different and in my job in particular um so I do that at work but that's because of the program and having a spiritual connection like I actually care and yes I can make mistakes and you know like how am I supposed to show up differently I would have never I never did that when I was drinking it's like you're the problem and go away and so it was just it was nice to hear that tonight.

A New Attitude That Expands Life

SPEAKER_00 38:07

And then the other piece is um and actually I'm going into work tomorrow and I'm gonna tell um the kiddos that I work with is like how do I need to show up different because today was not our best day. And like Roger was saying you know what you give out you know that comes back and I believe that. So I I look at myself it it's natural now it's a way of habit a way of life I look at what did I do wrong? Okay, what do I need to change? Who do I need to talk to tomorrow and tell them I'll show up different that that's and then um you know and it's all about too having a God conscious for me. I never had a God conscience before what what is that I don't care I didn't care about anybody but myself and now it's like if I do something wrong or cause harm I feel really bad and it eats me up until I can actually go make it right. That to me is part of my spiritual connection and with that I'll pass thank you right on right on the other thing besides saying I was wrong I've got to prove that I'm gonna change it.

SPEAKER_11 39:11

I've got to turn it around I've got to demonstrate the change hi I'm Allie I'm an alcoholic and um great to be here um I think I understand the topic um I realized that um what I need to turn to or I know when I'm um trying to get into basically the flow straight flow state is I have to turn to to me my higher power has really become sort of a positive attitude about a situation. I think my default is um especially when faced with any uncertainty and we're talking basic because um you know I work from home I live alone I've just got a lot of um you know I've got a car just these things and even like small excursions out of my comfort zone you know I went to San Diego for 36 hours and it was like you know it was this whole thing of like I don't there's so many and there are so many variables like getting to the airport you know all these things and I really realized it's I always um align it with you know when the tide goes out you can see all the tires and sometimes my life is held together so closely it's like that whole smaller I like it's that weird sense of control of like well I don't have to really think about you know everything is sort of around me here. I don't have to have a method I don't have to have um I basically lose out on ways to expand my life because I basically then find ways to basically fill my time as opposed to um expanding and um I'm not sure that made sense but um it was just weird because I went on this lovely trip to see my niece play lacrosse and it was um a brilliant trip but I think um because of the first of all my brother and sister in law are great to to travel with but I just had this attitude of like I'm in okay we're gonna I'm gonna the third wheel I'm the aunt I'm gonna just you know um how can I um basically add to the stream of life? What can I do here? It was just um again I forget how selfish or you know it's that sense of self of like um how much uh it expands my experience when it's like hey how can I help them out or not even just have to be like this conscious but like hey how can I contribute positively to the situation? How can I you know um not um not be so concerned about am I doing this the right way or this isn't going exactly the way I understand and having that faith that hey if I go in with a certain attitude let's see what happens and I will have someone to it'll be my higher power or just something that I'm in it together with someone as opposed to feeling um so separate. And um I can also uh really tell when um or just that I have to really set aside time and whether it's you know formal meditation or just something to be like okay God what are we up to today or what do you think? I mean it's it's very much of a um uh it's sort of a way of sharing what's going on without sort of thinking I I should know how to handle all of this stuff. I should know the right way to do this you know all this sort of shoulds and I realized that you know getting back to the basics of like okay here's where I am you know just and where do we you know all right as opposed to again setting up these ideals of like I'll be okay if I did this this and this or I'm a good person if I do this this and this and or why you know why don't I know how to do this better why don't I I have a different attitude all these other sort of me-me-me things which I laugh about how much how tight I can almost feel until I you know whether it's a conversation with someone or a lot of stressful things with my mom it's um and caring for an older parent um when I reach out but I also reach out with that attitude of like okay I'm gonna do my part you know hey we're in it together you know what can I do? But I also do need help. So it's like more of a team and I feel like that um you know when I do that with God too about like you know I'll do the action but you know let's do this together because otherwise again I get overwrought with again fear and anxiety and then I, you know, this whole you know my world gets smaller like it did when I was drinking you know all the um and to me that's really the negativity or the idea of like things are supposed to be a certain way that I need to figure it out not um hey part of this whole process is um being you know A fellow traveler. And again, um I really think that when I start either thinking I know how to do it or that I don't need to tell people about these things until they blow up because I'm handling it, um, is garbage. And um it it doesn't help me, it doesn't help any the people around me. But um, and again, to sum it up, it's really if I have this sort of positive like, see what happens, or let's let's get in there. Um, I just have to remember that you know, I can't afford to squander away the life I was given. And uh yeah, so that's that's a whole lot that I'm grateful to be here.

SPEAKER_10 44:40

Thank you. It is a whole lot. You know, I think you described a really beautiful 180 degree turnaround from our selfish self-centeredness. When I go through my situations and circumstances with the attitude, the angle of approach, what can I give to this rather than what can I get from it? That's a totally different take. What can I give rather than what can I get? And then the the other big ponder is well, how do I know what's God's will? I keep praying for God's will, and I don't know what it is. Well, start where start on a simple level, you know. The uh Oxford group, as you know, some of you know, that's where we get our 11th-step prayer meditation. And every day they were supposed to pray and get direction. This is two-way prayer, get direction from the creator, and then call someone in the group and share your direction and get their feedback. So it's like this. I go, Polly, yeah, I got my direction this morning. God thinks agrees with me that I should have a new Harley. What do you think? You know, it's just ridiculous, but that's what we're doing. So for me, a really simple answer to that whole ponder was is what I'm thinking, saying, about to do? Thinking, saying, or the action I'm about to take, is it loving? Is it kind? If it's loving, it's kind, and I can sign off on that. That's gotta be God's will. Because God represents unconditional love to me, okay? So then I don't have to worry about it. I don't have to think, is this God's will or is this my will dressed up as God's will? Right? God and I have been talking and he agrees a hundred percent. Right? No, I don't know. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

I'm Kirsten, I'll go.

SPEAKER_10 46:43

Hi, Kirsten, you go.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Hi. Um, I think if I understand what Ali was saying, it kind of brings back the parts that when we were talking, Roger, before we started sharing, about how the third-step prayer, for instance, isn't about for me, even though we are fed by what we give. When you know, the whole karmic circle that we were talking about, and that you know, that I may better do thy will, not mine, um, and be of maximum service to our fellows and all of that, kind of sounds like but not for me, for others, even though obviously it comes back and it feels me, you know, I am fed by what I give. Um, but what Allie was talking about, like just jumping in and saying, Yeah, I'm in, let's do this thing. And that sounded to me like it was kind of a 180 for her. And I remember for me realizing that I didn't have to like the thing that the people were doing. Like I used to say before I got sober, before AK, I don't like games. I'm not playing, I can't sit and play a game, I don't want to play. And so I just go off and do my own thing and isolate while my whole family's playing Monopoly, or you know, I don't like whatever video games. You guys just play the week. I'm glad you love it. I don't want to, whatever. And now I understand that it is possible for Kirsten to find joy in other people's joy, and that I don't have to back away from the things that other people are doing, but I can enjoy them enjoying what they're doing. And that was just like blew my mind. I'm just like, this is really great. You're just coming alive with this thing. I don't have to like what's going on. I don't like to have, I don't have to particularly enjoy a particular movie, but I would like to go experience the fandom that one maybe one of my daughters has about a certain person on the screen or something, and then we get to talk about it, and I get to enjoy their joy. And that somehow just struck me while Roger was talking, and then when Allie was talking, and and it it is that whole thing, it's not for me, it's for you that I could be encouraging, supportive, loving, compassionate, kind, and say yes rather than no, not for me. Anyway, that's what I had going through my mind. Thank you.

SPEAKER_10 49:06

Thanks, Chris Kirsten. It's also an example what what Jesus was teaching. He was teaching love, and he said, love your neighbor like you love yourself. And that's kind of what you were saying about getting the joy out of someone else's joy, right? Can you love your neighbor like you love yourself?

SPEAKER_07 49:31

But I could try a little. Who else?

SPEAKER_01 49:48

I will say, this is Kirsten again, that my neighbor has a lot of habits that aren't particularly my favorite thing, like super loud, jet-fueled four-wheelers. And what I tell myself is that he is having the time of his life out there. It's temporary, it'll be over soon. And that would be what Ahe has taught me. Compassion, joy, and others' joy. And I have said something again, but I'm really gonna Okay, who else?

SPEAKER_10 50:40

This is always fun, you know. Every gathering is like getting a surprise package in the mail. And you open it up to see what's in it, and it's like every every time it's different. But it's so beautiful and so delightful for me.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Oh, okay, hi. I am new to the Zoom thing. You know, I'm kind of like um a fossil when it comes to this stuff. I've really enjoyed listening. Um Dina told me about this, and so I got on. So I'm very new to this.

SPEAKER_10 51:56

Where are you logging in from?

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Hudson, Wisconsin. Oh, just a minute. Yeah, where are you at?

SPEAKER_10 52:04

Where I'm in Minneapolis.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Oh, okay. Yeah, so this is uh a local thing. Um, I heard about it from it's not Allie's in California.

SPEAKER_10 52:14

Lori's on the East Coast.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Oh, yeah, okay. Well, good meeting. And I'm enjoying listening, but I'll participate next time. Thanks.

SPEAKER_10 52:25

Thank you. Good to have new people. Anyone else?

SPEAKER_04 52:35

I'm Rhonda. I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Rhonda. Hi. Um, so I know I was supposed to be here tonight. I was uh scrolling through Facebook and you had put some quote out there. I I don't know if it's from you or who it's from. I read it five times and then finally I just couldn't get it, I couldn't get it in like oh something about uh spiritually, spirituality replacing our plans of people trying to get our happiness outside ourselves instead of our spiritual condition. Um something like that.

SPEAKER_08 53:17

Was it this one?

SPEAKER_10 53:18

Unless programs for happiness have begun to be dismantled by a spiritual practice or discipline. We're not aware that events and people or our plans and memories are dominating our awareness from morning till night. Was it that one? It's that one, yeah. It is disturbing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 53:41

It is, and because I was sitting there, you know, planning, making my plans, and and then I read that and I'm like, oh my gosh, is it the third Wednesday? Okay. So here I am. And um uh I've had to overcome what I had to overcome to believe in God. And um, I always believed in God, even when I was a kid, I was very small and I had an awareness that there was something bigger out there, and it's almost like I had a hole I needed to fill. And I knew it, I mean, young, like seven, eight years old. And I went searching, and of course, who do I run into but the fundamental baptists? You know, they recruit, they recruit really hard, and God bless them for it, you know. They they can have their beliefs, and um, but it was very scary, vengeful God, hellfire, brimstone. I can't live like this. God must hate me. I can't, you know, you know, I was a teenager at the time and raging hormones. Oh, I can't not do that. So I just thought God hated me. And um, and then I had uh had to overcome that. I remember one of my early sponsors telling me because I had called in sick for work, and the next day my car wouldn't start. And I said, God's punishing me for calling in and lying and saying I was sick for work. She looks at me, she's like, You think God made your car not start? She goes, It's not starting because it's 20 below zero, and this was the 90s, you know. It just I had to get over that that he he was mean because and then he that too also hung me up a little. He, the father, the the pronouns, yeah, the pronouns kind of and and trust. And now this time I had 20 years of sobriety. I relapsed in 2020. I just got a year March 5th, beginning of this month. I made it a year without a drink. Okay, thank you. It's amazing because I've made all sorts of mistakes and I certainly am not turning it over. Um, and it was one of my like in the first three or four months, I kept saying a lot. I just I don't trust God. I don't trust God. What? That gives me like me even saying that is me saying I'm in control and I'm gonna stay in control because I don't trust the big guy upstairs. It's an illusion. I never have control. I I don't. Um, and I'm okay and I'm alive and I've been given a second chance at uh this sober deal. And um God, I'm just really hurting. I'm really hurting, I'm really raw. But I have not picked up a drink. And I love what I think it was Melissa said about praying to God, help me let you love me. Because I've never had a relationship. I certainly believe in God, I certainly know He's the one keeping me sober right now. Um the first thing I said when I pushed away the jug was, God, please help me not take a drink. I mean, I knew right where to go. God, please help me not drink today. So I just want a relationship. You know, is that too much to ask? I mean, I I just want to like have this exchange, but right now it's just it's not there. Um, but I can keep practicing, and that's all I got. That'll pass.

Listening For Nudges And Closing

SPEAKER_10 57:29

Thank you. It's more there than you know. It's more there than you know, because to have a relationship with you, we both have to work at it. It's not a one-way, it's a two-way with me and the creator, and I have to work on figuring out how that uh entity uh communicates with me through circumstances, through people, through intuition, you know. Your intuition got you on the meeting tonight, you know, and that's the guided me connecting to the to the creator going here. I got I got something for you over here, but you got to pay attention to the nudge. And you can't pay attention to the nudge if you're trying to control everything, right? So it's it's just a classroom, it's just lesson after lesson after lesson. How do I know if I'm going the right direction? Because of the results it yields. The fruit it bears, that's how you know. And it's not, you know, this from being sober a long time and trying to get back in the rooms. It's very up and down, up and down. It's supposed to be because I'm crazy and I have not re-established myself in sane, solid thinking. So I'm going in and out, in and out, in and out. That doesn't matter because if I'm going in and out, I know there's an in. And I just have to create more space in that inner room than the outer room. And that's giving myself to these ideas, that's prayer, meditation, inventory, self-examination of my thinking, which is rooted in the disease. My alcoholism is in my thinking. It's not in the bottle. Never was in the bottle. The bottle is the answer to that hole you were talking about, Rhonda. That hole is the God size hole that the A guys were talking about when I came in. I thought, that is ridiculous. That sounds so stupid, God size hole. Right? But boy, I knew about the emptiness. And I threw everything worldly into that hole I could, and it never got filled up. So good deal. Thanks for being here. Anyone got anything you're gonna get off their heart before we go? Because we're getting there now.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

Can I quick say something about what you just said?

SPEAKER_10 59:44

If you can quickly say it.

SPEAKER_03 59:46

Yep. So the hole I want to add to it is like I I was so comfortable in the dark and so comfortable with the pain that once I started reaching for the goodness and the light and the gentleness, it was overwhelming at first. It was too much. It was the the light was too bright, the sweetness was too uncomfortable at first. Like I didn't want, even though I felt the love, it it didn't feel comfortable. But I knew that it was good for me. And so I kept reaching for it. And I micro-dosed love at first. Like I just needed little bites, but not too much because the because the discomfort felt more comfortable than than the comfort. But the more I started letting myself gently have little bites of it and just trusted it and trusted the process, the more comfortable I got with it. But at first it was really hard, but I just knew I trusted that it was right, but it was not comfortable.

SPEAKER_10 1:00:49

Thanks, Melissa. A lot of us will find out too the blocks to that receiving that goodness was the shame I carry. I don't deserve to be loved. I don't deserve a break. I don't deserve another chance, I don't deserve a do-over, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:05

So anyway, that's mine was I was afraid of it because I didn't trust it. Like it it because uh if I was loved, I was going to it was I was gonna be in trouble at some point. Like I it I didn't I just didn't trust it. I didn't feel like it was well. Well, when you got loved, something came after it. Like you you got hurt after it. Like if you let yourself be loved, then you got hurt. You left yourself vulnerable and open for so it's that reaction of getting burnt too much.

SPEAKER_10 1:01:40

All right, we're running out of time here. I've got to keep this on a disc for the people that buy discs. So, anyway, thanks for being here tonight. Please come back and see us again. Do you want to?